Mad Men C to Z S5E9 Dark Shadows Podcast Transcript

This is the full, human-edited transcription of Mad Men C to Z's podcast about Season 5, Episode 9: Dark Shadows. Although many podcast providers include AI transcription (including Spotify), there are often errors in name spellings, punctuation, or even speaker recognition.
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Mad Men C to Z S5E9 Dark Shadows Transcript 
 
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each rewatch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men C to Z.
 
Jenna: This is Mad Men C to Z, Season 5, Episode 9, Dark Shadows. This episode was written by Erin Levy, and directed by Scott Hornbacher.
 
Steve: The episode kicks off with Betty in the kitchen preparing a very healthy breakfast.
 
Jenna: In the commentary, Matthew Weiner talks about their researchers checking Weight Watchers, and getting these details to be really accurate.
And I looked up some of the guidance from the 1966 cookbook, and portion control and eating a lot of fish each week, and eating either an orange or a grapefruit daily was part of it.
 
I normally love a montage about the underdog and the hard work that doesn't happen overnight. I mean, Rocky Balboa, right? But this is Betty Draper . . . Francis . . . Manfredjensen.  [Laughing]
I have some sympathy for her, but her struggle to lose weight just isn't a compelling storyline. And we see a lot of it in this episode.

 
Steve: Yeah, I can accept that. I mean, we're sort of checking in on her character,
and there doesn't seem to be a lot else going on with her character.
It's not one of the stronger storylines.
 
Jenna: So next we see Don, Roger, Bert, and Pete on the elevator, and Pete is excited about being featured in a New York Times article on hip agencies.
And this is the ambitious, credit-hungry Pete we're used to, not the sad and lonely guy who's been popping up a lot this season.
 
Steve: Pete makes a point of saying that they only want to talk to Pete, but none of the other guys seem to care.
 
 
Jenna: Much later, in the office, Don is going through the posters of their recent campaigns, and he's noticing how often Ginsberg's name is on there.
Joan offers some kind thoughts about all the great work, but none of it is Don's from the ground up anymore.
Bert accused Don of being on love leave, and now that Megan is out of the office,
I think Don expects things to be right where he left them.
 
And this is a huge privilege Don takes for granted over and over. When you're this beautiful and talented, surely everybody's just going to wait around for your attention, right?
And when you find the time, you'll just get back to those people and the work, and it'll be right there.
 
Steve: Having another strong creative in addition to Peggy and himself is great for the firm, and the firm is doing well, you know, we can see there's a lot of business across a diverse range of clients.
So this is a very personal perspective Don's taking, and he doesn't seem to give much thought or weight to the responsibilities he has as the manager over this department.
 
Jenna: I'm nodding at you. You can't see it. Sorry. Not helpful.
 
So next up, Bert visits Roger's office with a business opportunity.
And it's a great detail because they both heard Pete bragging on the elevator earlier. So they enjoy keeping him out of this for now.
 
And it's an even better detail that Bert doesn't know Roger and Jane are getting divorced. He thinks the fact that Jane is Jewish will help get the Manischewitz account.
Roger goes, Jane and I are getting divorced. And (Bert) looks at his watch and says, already? Bert was never a fan of their relationship.
 
Steve: Yeah. And similar to Don Draper coming back off of love leave, and seeing how things have moved in his absence, it seems that Bert is just gradually drifting away from the business more and more.
 
 
Jenna: Next we see Sally and Megan sitting on the floor of the apartment,
and they're staring at each other in an acting exercise to make yourself cry.
 
When I watch this scene, it makes me realize how rarely Sally's parents give her their full attention.
Megan is including Sally in what she's learning for her class in an age-appropriate way.
And Sally has been wanting to be included for such a long time. So it's nice to see somebody actually spending that time with Sally again.
 
Steve: And Sally's impressed by Megan's ability to portray an emotion. So when Megan turns on the sad face, Sally is in awe that she can just make that happen.
 
 
Jenna: Meanwhile, Don is heading to the office on a weekend, with no apparent pressing need to do it. But he kisses Megan and Sally on his way out. Everything seems loving,
but it feels like Don getting back to his old life.
 
He isn't sitting on the carpet with his family learning how to cry.
Maybe he should get in touch with his feelings a little bit more, actually. But he's heading to the office, and he doesn't have to.
 
Steve: In the office, it seems like Don is something less than productive. Smoking, gazing out the window, walking around in the semi-darkness.
 
As he goes to leave, he sees the light on in Peggy's office, so he goes in there to turn it out and notices the Sno Ball work on Michael's desk.
As he starts flipping through it and looking at Michael's various ideas, I think we can see the spark of creative reigniting in Don.
 
Jenna: Ginsberg's sketches draw him in so much that he turns the light back on and sits down to look through them.
And it seems like he's surprised that Ginsberg's work is so good, even though he's the creative director.
It feels like he should maybe be a little more familiar with Ginsberg's work and his process.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think it's just in alignment with his love leave, where he's been oblivious to so much, whether it's account management or the work of his own team, he's, he's been missing in action.
I think he can see the, the strength of, of what Ginsberg is working on.
 
 
Jenna: Next up we see Henry and Betty in traffic, and they're waiting to get the kids back from Don and Megan.
And you can see already in the car, Betty does not want to go up to get them,
but Henry's double parked and he's going to circle in traffic. So she has to.
 
And make a note of this coat she has on, because it's the same one we're going to see in a future episode where it rips. And I really appreciate that Janie Bryant has characters wear the same clothes the way that actual people do. So it's not that Betty has a coat for every different day. It's another detail that makes her authentic.
 
She checks herself in the mirror, and fixes her hair, and sucks in her stomach before she rings the doorbell. She is really nervous about it.
 
Steve: And the visit to the apartment is every bit as bad as she feared.
It's this sexy, chic Manhattan apartment with a great view.
 
When she's in the apartment, sort of looking around, she can't help but see through the bedroom window Don's replacement wife: a younger, thinner version of her getting dressed. So it's just ticking all the wrong boxes for Betty in terms of peeking in on her ex's life.
 
And we know Betty's got some regrets and scar tissue about the relationship with Don and none of this is helping any of that.
 
Jenna: January Jones has very few lines in the scene, but she does such a great job conveying her jealousy and her insecurity and frustration non-verbally.
 
In addition to just general jealousy about Megan and Don and this apartment, I suspect Betty would have loved to have lived in the city instead of the suburbs, because remember how excited she was about the idea of living in London and having a nanny when Don thought the Brits were going to move them there?
 
So to see Don living the complete opposite of their life together with somebody else,
that's rough for her. And then to see Megan changing and how skinny she is when Betty's trying to lose weight, this is, I think, another life, another opportunity that -
and seeing somebody else have it . . .
 
It's not the most attractive look that Betty is so spoiled, but she just really can't handle somebody else having something she wants, just like Pete.
 
Steve: Well, and even the farewell from the children to Megan, you know, is very warm. It's clear the children like her and have established a relationship.
So Betty's got nothing here to cling on. And it seems like she's losing on all fronts, and that's just piling up on her emotionally.
I wouldn't want to be in the car with Henry and her driving back after they picked up the kids.
 
Jenna: No. And you'd think if Betty sees Megan genuinely liking the kids,
that that would give Betty some relief that the kids are okay.
And instead she's jealous that it feels like Megan is doing everything better.
 
Betty's interactions with her kids are mostly scolding or performative attention.
So to see Megan having genuine affection for them, and kissing them goodbye and, you know, missing them . . . Granted, it is easier to watch kids for a weekend, like Megan does, than to care for them day in and day out like Betty does, sort of. [Laughing]
I guess she kind of cares for them.
But it's a shame that Betty isn't a better human here.
 
Steve: Well, and Betty measures everything by appearances.
So, you know, a bit of advice I've heard in my life was if you're going to be jealous of someone, you have to be jealous of everything.
And that's helpful because often what we're jealous of are certain aspects of a life,
and we don't give thought to all those other aspects that we're not jealous of, or even we're grateful that we're not subjected to, or don't have to make that kind of commitment.
And it helps create a bit of balance.
 
I think in this case, Betty is looking at all the hallmarks of a happy second marriage and a new life in the city, in the apartment with the kids.
It's all those surface things that she can sort of observe from this quick visit to the apartment with no thought about anything else, about how the relationship may or may not be all that and a bag of chips.
 
Jenna: And we should mention, in the DVD commentary, Matthew Weiner talks about how this episode is primarily about people having envy, and wishing you had what somebody else has, at the same time other people might be envying what you have, and just the inability to appreciate, basically. Which is funny, given that the episode is set at Thanksgiving.
 
Sally had asked for colored pencils, but she never got them, because Don never came home for dinner. He didn't pick up colored pencils on his way back. He didn't even see the kids to say goodbye because he's in his office and he's brainstorming ideas for Sno Ball.
We haven't seen Don doing this kind of brainstorming work on a product in a long time.
 
Steve: Yeah, Don seems rusty, but I think the point of the scene is just to show that creative process and that he's immersing himself in it, putting in the time. It's after hours that he's doing this.
This shows where his focus is now, and he's turning back towards the business, back toward his origins in creative.
 
Jenna: When I first heard them talking about Sno Ball as a product,
I was more familiar with the Hostess product, the cream-filled chocolate cake with the pink coconut exterior.
This Sno Ball is different. This was a real product from Pepsi, and it was like a slushie.
I know everybody was wondering that, [Laughing] but I did look that up because I was curious.
 
 
So next, Betty gets home after picking the kids up, and she runs straight to the fridge for a can of spray whipped cream.
She sprays a giant swirl directly into her mouth.
This is gonna be the cure, right, that solves all of her envy.
 
Steve: You know, a lot of us at some point or other try to eat our feelings or find,
you know, comfort in favorite foods. So even in this, she can't really succeed.
She does that, but then she realizes what she's done and goes over to the sink and spits out a bunch of it.
So even in terms of this escape, she's not fully committed to it. And I think it just signifies that she's caught between looking backwards at the life she had and that's gone, looking at the life she has, and then now this unhelpful and unconstructive measurement of it against the life that she thinks Don and Megan have.
 
Jenna: For me, this is probably the most interesting part of all the weight loss scenes in this episode.
I'm really proud of Betty that she overcomes this, because we could see how difficult and how envious and how much of a struggle that visit to the apartment was.
 
So the fact that she spits the whipped cream out into the sink, she stays with her weight loss plan, that feels like she's reaffirming her life and trying to make the best of it.
 
Steve: What's the point of sticking to the diet to be thin? And why do you want to be thin? Because that's the way you want to be, and it will make you happy, so you can stick to the diet and be unhappy?
It seems kind of circular and self-defeating to me, not to say go binge eat every time you're, you have an emotional shot.
 
But I don't feel like this is a success or an achievement for her. I think she's just stuck in this trap and, and she's not winning emotionally no matter what she does.
 
Jenna: No, that's a really good point, because the fact that she believes being thin is going to be the key to being happy is, has always been misguided.
That definitely can't lead her to any kind of fulfillment. So it, it is an empty pursuit for sure.
 
Steve: And even, you know, the stuff you can't change. So she can manage her weight with enough discipline and effort, but she's getting older, and that's something she can't fight.
And I think clearly when she was looking at Megan, she could see the age difference there and, and there's nothing she can do about that.
 
Jenna: Well, maybe we're being kind of hard on Betty for buying into societal expectations because this idea that younger is better is also a problem, right? Because if Betty had any substance to her, you know, she would have acquired some wisdom and some compassion and some generosity, and we don't see that in her at all.
 
And it's funny how in young, thin, mean Betty, we accept things from her, and we're saying like, oh, as an overweight older Betty, then her meanness is less acceptable.
I mean, isn't that an interesting perception?
 
Steve: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying in Betty's head, not in society's. In Betty's head, younger is better.
So if Betty is going to buy into that, she's on the losing end of that equation, and there's nothing she can do about it.
I think Betty set herself up here for, in a, into a trap, into failing. I don't think she can win by the criteria she's laying out for herself.
 
 
Jenna: Next up, the creative team is meeting in the office the next day and Peggy shares an idea for Sno Ball. She pushes back a little bit on Don's critiques, and he moves on to Ginsberg, who has a snowball in the face idea.
It's a cop, a teacher with glasses, anyone kids hate, he says, and maybe a pig.
And everybody laughs.
 
And I thought that could be a reference to Animal Farm, where, of course, a pig named Napoleon manipulates the rules to drive out a pig named Snowball.
And of course, in this episode, we see Don abusing his power to shove Ginsberg aside. So that fits.
 
Steve: And when Don gives his idea about the devil, Peggy and Michael are kind of unenthusiastic about it. But Stan does this laugh, and it's not blatantly sycophantic . . .
 
I think Peggy and Michael are taking it from a pure creative opinion standpoint, in which case they're saying, hey, I don't think that's especially clever or funny. So I'm not going to chuckle.
From Don's perspective, I think he's thinking this is this great idea, and he's very eager to roll it out in front of them.
And just the reaction of sort of two of the three strongest creatives is so much more lukewarm.
 
Jenna: When Don starts sharing his idea for Sno Ball, you can tell how unusual it is, because the entire team's response is utter surprise that he's pitching anything.
So I think there are several beats of shock that Don has done work on this campaign before they even start to judge whether it's good or not.
 
And we get a truth call-out here because Don goes, there's a 90% chance that you are thinking of a snowball’s chance in hell when you hear the words Sno Ball.
And Peggy goes, that's true. And it's just like, I don't think Peggy thinks it is true.
I think this is like, we understand what we're supposed to say.
 
Ginsberg's reaction is the most interesting, because it's almost condescending.
He goes, wow, that's actually good.
And then he says what Peggy and Stan would never say. He says, it's impressive you could not write for so long and come back with that.
 
And Don, you know, I get the impression he's pleased, because he thinks his idea is well received.
But also, I think Don thinks Ginsberg is just a weirdo who says socially inappropriate things.
I don't think he registers how unusual it is for the team to see him working again, and that they are all thinking more like Ginsberg than they are thinking like him.
 
Steve: Now that Don wants to focus on being creative,
he wants to be part of this creative process and the sharing of ideas,
but he's the boss.
And although he might want to just have it beyond the merits of the creative ideas,
there's always going to be the recognition and awareness in that room that he is the boss.
 
This idea that he can return back to that where it's this meritocracy, this hierarchy is present.
In some ways, you can't go back.
 
 
Jenna: Next, we see Betty at a Weight Watchers meeting.
There's a lot of Weight Watchers philosophy in here. And in the DVD commentary, Weiner explains, it's very authentic to the period.
 
They did a lot of research, but I could do less with this.
We already knew Betty was having a hard time dealing with Don's new life.
We also saw her skip the whipped cream. I just don't think this scene gives us any new information.
 
Steve: I was thinking maybe it's a bit like when Roger's talking about his intuitions from his acid trip and Don says, you know, some people realize that without taking lsd.
Maybe some of the philosophies and things that are going on in these classes . . .
people have good and bad weeks. Yeah, they do.
 
Jenna: Well, and clearly Betty is supposed to be shown as learning this. But again, I just -
I don't want to argue with the writing, because it's an amazingly well-written show, and we love it.
But I'm disappointed for Betty's character. I just - she deserves a more interesting storyline than this.
 
Steve: Yeah. I think - are you saying this character is smarter than this, and more self aware than this? And it feels like she's been simplified and dumbed down a bit to serve the arc of the plot in this particular episode.
It's not serving the character in that bigger picture.
 
Jenna: Yes. And I don't need Betty to be a hero. It's okay if she is shallow and imperfect. She doesn't have to be a good human.
But there has to be something more interesting to say about her than how she looks.
So the show disappoints me.
 
Steve: Yeah, she's smarter than this, the character. They've built up a character that's deeper and more nuanced than this.
 
Even if they want to run with this, this weight thing, because I do think that is a common struggle that many of us have faced, add in the other piece as well, because this, this alone is not sufficient.
 
Jenna: I do want to mention the Weight Watchers leader is played by Kate McNeil, and she's been in a lot of projects, including Space Cowboys, and As the World Turns.
 
And she was also in the movie Glitter with Mariah Carey, which I am so proud to say we actually saw in the theater. [Laughing] So we are clearly connoisseurs of fine art.
 
 
Steve: The next scene has Megan helping out one of her friends who's auditioning for a part, and keeping with the themes here of jealousy, and also, I think this notion of you can't go back to what you may have been in the past, we see both of those frictions arise here as Megan kind of laughs and mocks the part.
 
The friend can't look at it that way. To the friend, this is their way of earning a living. They desperately need this role. The friend doesn't have the luxury of dismissing it.
 
And that brings up the larger point of Megan's privilege in that she's married to this wealthy executive. She lives in this beautiful apartment.
So, yeah, she wants to be an actress, and she's going to feel that pressure of being judged and the disappointment of not making roles. But that doesn't mean she doesn't get to eat dinner that night.
 
And clearly for Megan's friend, that she's facing an entirely different calculus. I think Megan is a little insensitive here.
 
Jenna: I think that's true. And Julia's point is true.
Megan doesn't have to wait tables to feed herself, unlike a lot of actors auditioning around town.
But I appreciate that Megan admits she can make fun of the soap opera, and she'd still do anything to get an audition for it. So her jealousy is honest.
It makes us like Megan a little bit more that she is that forthright.
 
Steve: Yeah, she seems like a real straight shooter. She owns up to it fairly readily.
 
Jenna: But Megan also isn't weak. So just like she gave Betty a biting comment about, well, I think you've seen most of it, when Betty was snooping around the apartment a little,
Megan gives another one here to Julia:
 
She says, what should I bring for Thanksgiving?
And Megan goes, something sweet.
Like, don't bring your tone back to Thanksgiving.
 
So it seems to me she's calling people out for wrong behavior instead of accepting it passively, and then she moves on.
And both of those things are unlike Betty, who silently seethes, right, and then resents people forever.
 
I wanted to mention I'd never heard of this soap opera before,
but Dark Shadows, this Mad Men episode title, was an actual supernatural soap opera in the late 60s.
It was created by Dan Curtis, who later directed a 1974 Dracula movie starring Jack Palance, as well as the TV miniseries The Winds of War.
So if you want to go on a supernatural soap opera binge, watching Dark Shadows is there for you.
 
 
Next. Roger calls Ginsberg into his office, and I really like this little joke when Roger says it will involve a client dinner. Ginsberg takes this Agatha Christie voice and he goes,
“And muuuur-der.”
And Roger is not amused.
But I was.
 
Steve: Roger wants Ginsberg, because Ginsberg's Jewish.
So he mentions how he's the right guy for the job. And he also doesn't want Ginsberg telling Don about this. And Michael's smart enough to clue in that if it's on the down low, then he's got an angle here to get some money, so he's able to squeeze 200 bucks out of Roger,
very reminiscent of earlier work that Peggy did on the sly for him.
 
Jenna: Roger has this awful line about how Manischewitz wants to sell the wine to normal people.
And then he goes, well, you know, people like me.
What exactly about Roger is normal?
 
And then Roger basically admits it's all about getting the best of Pete Campbell. Because he says, well, Michael, when a man hates another man very, very much,
sometimes he wants to know that something is his, even if in the end he has to give it up.
 
And he says the work is for Mr. Cooper. And we're supposed to believe Roger is so relaxed and enlightened now.
But I guess it's really hard to let go of hating Pete.
 
If we're keeping score, Roger ends up paying Ginsberg $200. Peggy got 400 for Mohawk, Harry got over $1,000 for switching offices, and Caroline got $50 for sitting closer to Roger's desk.
 
 
At the Francis household, Betty finds Henry up late cooking a steak because she's been making fish so often.
This scene is supposed to be nice. Betty and Henry are sitting down together.
He talks about his work. He mentions the 1972 presidential election.
And Betty tries to say something supportive.
 
So I feel like she is trying to reinvest in her life so Don can have his chic Manhattan apartment, and she has this giant castle and this political star husband.
And she's trying to see and appreciate what's in front of her.
She doesn't say anything witty or meaningful. And again, I wish there was more there for her.
 
Steve: And Betty's kind of flipping the Weight Watchers advice here. You know, good weeks and bad weeks, Henry's bet on the wrong horse, and Betty's very comforting and reassuring here. So I think she's a good partner from that perspective.
 
And then even Henry, he's trying to, you know, be gentle about the fact he's sick of eating fish as he cooks a snake - a steak in the middle of the night.
Often when we see Henry, he's doing a pretty good job of being a pretty good partner for Betty.
 
Jenna: Yes. I think in every scene you can see he really loves her and he cares about her.
 
Next up, Roger calls Jane and asks her to show up at a dinner for Manischewitz.
In exchange, she wants him to buy her a new apartment.
 
We get a truth call-out, and we learn that Roger's been telling Jane fictional things she said when they took lsd, like swearing to always be there for him.
 
And we can see some pain coming from Jane.
Even though she's definitely about keeping score and getting hers, she's not light and free. Now that they're separated, she makes a dig about taking Joan to dinner instead of her.
And we never knew what she knew about that for sure.
 
She talks about having painful memories in the apartment. So she wasn't entirely using Roger for his money and influence when she married him.
 
Steve: That makes her more sympathetic as a character for me.
One thing I like about Roger is he - Roger knows when he's been beat.
 
And here when Jane kind of digs in on wanting a fresh start and a new life, and in order to do that, she needs a new place to live, he concedes the point fairly quickly. And his quip is that it's the most expensive dinner in history.
This is not a hill to die on.
 
He's so wealthy that he actually can't afford to do something like this, which again, I think speaks to just how privileged they both are.
 
 
Jenna: In Pete's office, we see Beth come in wearing a fur coat with very little underneath.
And this fantasy is that she saw Pete in the New York Times Sunday Magazine, and she was so impressed, she rushed right over to him.
Like, Betty, I know Pete is unhappy, but I wish he were a better human.
 
Steve: I wish his fantasy had him cleaning and dressing some rabbits that he had just killed in a cabin. But I guess, you know, as second best fantasy he can be in his office. And it's the perfect fantasy for Pete, right?
 
 
Jenna: Next up, we see Betty with Sally. Betty is sticking to her diet. She affirmed Henry. And now while Sally is working on her family tree, Betty discovers a note on one of Bobby's papers.
 
And this note, which is on the back of a smiling whale being stabbed by multiple arrows -
and I'm not looking to body shame Betty by a comparison to a stabbed, smiling whale, but I do feel like she puts on a face in the face of her misery, so there is something there.
And this note she finds is just the last stab she can take.
 
Don left this sweet note for Megan, and Betty's response is the most vicious bite of celery in the history of vegetables.
And if she stopped there, good for you, Betty.
But she doesn't.
 
Steve: Yeah, and I don't know, trying to defend Betty here a bit. Don never wrote these little notes to her. That wasn't their relationship.
It really hurts her. Hurts her more than the chic apartment in the city. Hurts her more than the thinner, younger wife.
 
And we know that Betty has idealized Don's life post divorce as well. So even when he was deep in his alcoholism and very, very lonely, she couldn't perceive that she thought he was living the life he'd always sought.
 
So at this low point, she weaponizes Sally here by mentioning that the family tree doesn't include Anna Draper.
And of course, Sally knows nothing about Anna.
 
And all Betty has done is teed it up and says, well, you should ask Megan about Anna Draper. So she's undermined Don in the eyes of her daughter because there's this secret that he's never shared with her,
and she's pulling Megan into the middle of it, when it really has nothing to do with Megan.  
 
I wonder if Betty thinks Megan may not even know that Anna existed, so she's trying to get Don in trouble with Megan as well.
 
Jenna: I agree: Betty thinks Megan doesn't know about Anna, and this is her squashing this love note business and trying to throw a wrench in, the way that the discovery of Don's past was so awful for Betty.
 
We don't know when or how Don told Megan, but after his birthday party, she referred to him as Dick Whitman, so she has details Betty had to pry out of a drawer.
 
Betty just wants to inflict damage, and she doesn't care if Sally suffers because of it. And you can see how curious and worried Sally's reaction is. And Betty's just chewing on her celery.
 
Steve: And it's one thing for Betty to, you know, wage this kind of warfare against Megan and Don, but the collateral damage here is Sally.
To use your daughter in your attempt to get back at your ex - it's an awful look for Betty.
 
 
Jenna: Next up, Ken and Harry are looking at the creative work for Sno Ball with the team,
and there are two ideas.
They deliberately don't say which idea came from which person.
 
And it's notable, I think, that Peggy doesn't try to sway the team toward one or the other.
If Pete knew which one was Don's, I think he would always choose that one.
But he ends up pointing at Ginsberg's, and he says, this one's funnier.
 
So they end up deciding to lead with Ginsberg's and take both options to the client.
The team decides to lead with Ginsberg’s and take both options, and there's no debating that that was the team decision.
 
Steve: Okay, but it isn't a democracy.
So I get it: the team clearly expressed their preference, and the preference was for Ginsberg's. But as we've seen in many, many other decisions and circumstances,
they're not all equal.
 
Don Draper is in charge, and he represents creative. And I think ultimately he has the managerial decision.
Now, if he wanted to go a different way, should he put his foot down there and clearly communicate it to the team at that time and place?
Yeah, maybe that would prevent a misunderstanding or whatever.
 
But does Don have the right and the privilege of deciding whether to present both or neither or whatever? I think he does that. That is his authority to do so.
He's the boss.
 
Jenna: Sure, he's a partner, but he wants to pretend this is about creative, and it isn't.
 
Steve: Agreed. Agreed. But who constitutes the team? So we've had all this friction between accounts and creative, all along when we've been told all along by creative that, well, they don't know anything, they're just account people, blah, blah, when it comes to the meritocracy of creative.
 
If that's the illusion that's being presented here, then that's down to Stan, Peggy, Michael, and Don Draper.
And then again, it is not a democracy. It is a hierarchy. And at the top of that pyramid is Don Draper.
 
Jenna: I know this is to the side of where we are, but for the record,
even though everybody likes Ginsberg's idea in the room,
and we're supposed to understand that he's a brilliant creative,
I personally dislike slapstick comedy. I don't think this is a super genius campaign.
I just think throwing a Sno Ball at somebody in the face is about the most basic juvenile humor ever.
 
But they do talk about it being a big laugh for kids.
And so for this particular product,
I accept it's an idea they all reasonably think will sell well to the client.
 
If we are going to argue on creative merits and brilliance,
it seems like kind of a low entry point into sophisticated advertising campaigns.
 
Steve: Which is an ironic lead-in, because the part that I liked about it was at the end of the scene where Ginsberg is gloating about the fact that his idea has dominated, Ginsberg quotes Ozymandias.
What makes it funny is that Stan tells him to read the rest of it,
because, yeah, it's about these great works, but it also talks about how they end up resulting in nothing. And it all goes away and you're left with nothing.
 
I just think that's the perfect response to Michael because he is getting a little full of himself now that his ideas seem to be carrying the day.
 
Jenna: Yes, his line is, look on my works, ye mighty, and despair, in the opening of the poem. But the whole thing is about the decay of power and ego.
So I'm kind of surprised that Stan has read that poem, to be honest, but -
 
Steve: Yeah, I think that's a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure Stan would be familiar with it.
I had the good fortune of going to Luxor, so I've been to the Ramesseum, which is where this poem is based, because it's kind of an erected temple and you've got the statues with the heads fallen off and the rest.
And it was a personal thrill to be in that place that inspired this famous poem and see it for myself. So I've always treasured that visit to the Ramesseum.
 
 
Jenna: Back at Megan's apartment, Sally's reading a book, and she's being really snotty to Megan.
When Megan asks what's going on, Sally asks about Anna,
and she feels betrayed that Megan's keeping secrets from her.
 
And of course she does. Her parents have been very loose with the truth over the years,
and now here's another adult she trusted who wasn't honest with her.
 
Steve: Yeah, and you know, Sally's in those difficult years where she's both child and adult. She's trying to figure out who she is, and she's surrounded by these flawed people who don't have the best track record.
 
I think the tragedy of this scene for me is I think Megan has really been a friend to Sally, and done about as much as one can do as a stepparent to support her and be there for her and build that connection.
So to have that undermined and burned down by Betty's little game, it's so tragic, because Sally deserves better than this.
 
And Megan's hurt by it, but Megan's an adult and will get through this. On the other side,
I think the damage for Sally is more profound and more enduring.
 
Jenna: Megan handles Sally's meanness pretty well.
It's hard to be a step-parent and know when to offer advice and discipline, and when to step back and defer to the original parents.
 
And I also think the insult Sally delivers is really perfect for her age. If you have ever worked with middle school students, it is a joy to be let into all the energy and growth and potential.
And it also means being a casualty of people who are - who are sometimes at their emotional limit.
 
So personalizing the, “Are you going to make yourself cry?” insult - taking something Sally and Megan did together and making it into something contemptible - that's so spot-on for how somebody Sally's age would target Megan.
 
Steve: And I think your point about Megan handling this very well is even more apropos because this is probably the first really vicious argument that the two of them have had.
So Megan doesn't have a track record of dealing with the teen.
 
I think Megan acquits herself about as well as she could hope here. But you can see Sally has scored hits here, and that's Sally's intention. And just that glare from her – again,
I think the acting is really spot on in this scene.
 
Jenna: Next we see Betty back at the Weight Watchers meeting.
She's discouraged about not losing weight, and the advisor is saying we should fill ourselves with our children, our homes, our husbands, instead of food.
 
And you can see Betty knowing she's supposed to be grateful for all she has, and she's still miserable.
So, like Jane, I have some pity for her, but I'm tired of her misery, too.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I think this is her fatal flaw, isn't it? She just doesn't take the advice of society or the expectations and the norms and run them through her own personal filter and find her truth.
She chases what she's told to chase and she has issues and struggles to get there.
 
That's such a trap and she just can't get out of it. It's a plastic cage that she's allowed to be built around herself. There's a bit of vindictiveness, I think, as I see her struggle with it and think, you deserve this, because you haven't extended some of that grace and kindness to the people dear, who should be dearest in your life, like your own daughter.
 
 
Jenna: Obviously, Don is not happy when he finds out Betty told Sally about Anna, or that Megan said anything about Anna to Sally. We've seen him like this a lot in the second and third seasons, but Megan talks him down and Sally overhears.
 
Megan is 100% right. She says, if you call Betty, you're giving her the thrill of having poisoned us from 50 miles away.
And that's exactly what Betty wanted.
 
Betty keeps letting Don's actions seep in and poison her relationship. But Megan is helping Don keep a firewall around theirs.
 
Steve: And Megan was totally put on the spot, did the best she could, I think. Handled it about as well as anyone could hope, so this anger we're seeing of Don towards Megan in the moment is totally unwarranted.
 
It's a painful scene, and I think if Betty could have spectated it in some way, she would have been thrilled with the first part of it, and then probably doubly miserable by the back half of it - one of those rare Don Draper apologies.
 
Jenna: I actually wrote two exclamation points after the word “apology” in my notes for the scene, because it's so rare that Don does that sincerely.
 
Steve: And it feels like a sincere apology, too, right. Like he sees how he flew off and let his emotions run away. And an apology like that is worth so much more than just mouthing the words because you're supposed to.
I think he truly is apologetic.
 
Jenna: And it’s so believable Sally would listen to get more information,
real information.
And you know she isn't going to be happy that Megan told Don about it, because she wanted Megan to keep that a secret.
But you don't know yet exactly how she's taking in this information and what she thinks about it.
 
 
Steve: Yeah. And I kind of love that about the scene because again, Sally is both child and adult at the same time.
 
 
Jenna: At the office, Peggy is working late, and Ginsberg comes in, hoping to work on Manischewitz in secret, but totally spilling the details instantly to Peggy.
And Peggy is jealous that Roger went to Ginsberg instead of her.
Did you think that envy seemed justified on her part?
 
Steve: Given how hard she's had to work for what she has, his gloating and arrogance, I think, about his successes in such a short period of time probably rubs her the wrong way.
And then again, she's done such great work in the past, and especially for Roger.
 
The fact that he didn't come to her - and she doesn't know the Jewish angle here at all.
I don't think Roger gave it a second thought.
 
 
Jenna: The next morning, Don wakes to a phone call from Pete.
The New York Times article came out, and they were not included.
And we know this was part of Pete's fantasy about Beth.
 
And I think he hoped Don would share in his misery, but there's nothing Don can do about this. And he gets irritable, and he ends up hanging up again.
It's just not great mentoring to bark, “Don't throw your failures in my face.”
 
But it is another example of Pete looking to Don to be his friend, and he just refuses to be.
 
Steve: Well, and Pete is the guy who earlier, at the prospect of being in the article and being one of the hip firms, was so happy that they didn't even need to talk to Don Draper. They were going to interview him.
 
But when it goes bad and he's excluded, then suddenly it's like, well, let's commiserate together, Don, about, you know, not being in this article.
 
I like the fact he kind of shuts down Pete and hangs up on him, although you can see him pull out the article and start looking through it to see what is in it.
So his lack of interest perhaps is - isn't exactly what he's portrayed it, at least to Pete's face.
 
Jenna: There was a real article in the New York Times on November 20, 1966, about advertisers as philosophers. We'll link to it on our website for this episode page.
In the real article, the part that Pete says is “the kicker on page 170,” it's somebody saying “most of the ad business stinks.”
 
Next up, Don confronts Sally.
He isn't totally honest about Anna. Shocker.
But he does take responsibility for the misunderstanding, and he tells her an abbreviated version.
 
And when Sally connects Anna to the house in California, Don admits that's true.
Do you feel like Don would have been a better parent if he had told Sally more of the truth?
 
Steve: You know, Don leads off with telling her that she's a little girl.
Sally doesn't want to be a little girl.
And there's a lot of aspects of Sally that aren't really little girlish at this point.
And Don seems to be lagging and not really catching up to the realities of her ability to think and observe and understand things.
 
So by underestimating her, I think he diminishes the information he gives her and her ability to handle it.
And just like having told the truth to Megan previously inoculated Megan from this surprise of Anna Draper, yeah, you should tell the truth for ethical reasons and all the rest. But I think it serves a great practical purpose here with her daughter, especially in a circumstance where Betty seems to be trying to weaponize Sally against them.
 
The part that hurts me here is where Don reciprocates that weaponization when he says directly to Sally that her mother doesn't care about her, she just wants to hurt Megan and Don.
That may be true in this circumstance, but I wish he didn't say that to his daughter, because Betty is her mother, will always be her mother.
 
Jenna: For me, I don't know if it would make the most sense to tell Sally every single detail, but the timing matters.
Telling Sally sooner about him, that's important.
This is an important part of Don, and the story should come from him.
And he put that off so he could still be a hero to her.
 
We hit Betty for thinking only about her image.
But Don, whether he's - whether Don is pretending to be apathetic to Pete about bad news, or pretending to be perfect to his daughter and his wife, and whoever else he wants to impress, he's very much about image, too.
 
Steve: Yeah. And in her commentary, Erin Levy mentions that there's a shift in the way Sally talks to Don.
And I think this, in this particular scene, we really see that Don is trying to dumb this down and talk down to her as a child.
And I think Sally is the one who forces it up to say, no, no, I can understand this, and you're going to have to give me more substance here.
 
I love at the end of the scene when Don says, an adult would apologize to Megan.
And I think that's a great read on this.
And now he's set up one of the things that I think makes an adult, right, taking responsibility, taking ownership, and doing the right thing.
 
 
Jenna: Next, Peggy and Roger are in the elevator together, and Peggy makes her displeasure known. Why didn't Roger ask her to do the Manischewitz work instead of Ginsberg?
 
And when Roger says it's because Ginsberg is Jewish, that offends Peggy, because as a professional, she writes for all kinds of audiences and products. And she points out she did great work on Mohawk without being an airplane.
 
Then Roger says, were we married?
And then he laments not having an executive elevator. [Laughing]
 
Steve: I also like the generation split here again, right. Peggy's bought into this young generation with these aspirations for, you know, a color-blind society, and a society where antisemitism isn't, you know, as prevalent, et cetera, et cetera.
 
And Roger's much more sort of mission-focused. And if he's courting a Jewish client, he's going to roll out the Jewish cards and play as many as he can as a way of differentiating himself from other firms that perhaps can't.
It's a very sort of mercenary conversation, I think, from Roger's standpoint, but I don't think it is from Peggy's.
 
And when Roger wraps up with it's every man for himself, it's not the best example of executive leadership.
 
Jenna: It's interesting she feels so free to express her displeasure directly to him, because she doesn't report to him, and he is a full partner.
It does seem a little ballsy of Peggy to come at him this way.
 
Steve: Perhaps. But I think it's also indicative of the powerlessness of Roger Sterling.
Roger can't fire Peggy. If he tried it, he'd have to go through Don.
 
 
Jenna: On the way to the Sno Ball pitch, Don deliberately leaves Ginsberg's campaign in the cab. Talk about low moments. This is just embarrassing for him.
 
Steve: Yeah, I mean, this is the managerial decision that's taken here.
He can hide behind the fig leaf that, you know, he does tend to avoid coming in with two campaigns. But I think we've covered how much he's personally invested in his idea, carrying the day here and winning the business.
 
Jenna: If he changed his mind and only wanted to take one idea, and he wanted to take his idea, he could still have brought both campaigns into the room.
This ensures Ginsberg's idea will not be sold.
 
It's not best for business. There's no way you can claim that. This is clearly serving Don's ego.
 
 
Steve: Speaking of egos, back at the Francis residence,
Betty calls Sally into the kitchen to congratulate her on getting an A on her family tree.
And Sally knows exactly where Betty's coming from, knows exactly what Betty wants to hear.
And now it's Sally's turn to reciprocate the manipulation.
And she will not give Betty the satisfaction.
 
Jenna: I don't think anybody watching the first time would predict what Sally does here, but it is kind of the perfect response.
Sally lies to Betty. She says Megan told her the same information that they looked at pictures. They spoke fondly of her.
 
Betty keeps the mask on really well in front of Sally,
but she wanted to rip a hole in the space time continuum.
She didn't want to hear about a family picture session.
So when Sally leaves, she knocks something off the table and just stews. Alone.
 
And anger and bitterness are lonely. Right? They're terrible companions. And that's what Betty's left with.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I kind of like the frontier justice here. You know, these teens can be mean in both directions.
She knows darn well this is going to drive her mother crazy,
and she does it anyway.
Because I think Sally probably resents being manipulated and weaponized the other direction.
So now it's boomeranged back around on her,
and I don't have a lot of sympathy for her character in this lonely moment, as you point out.
 
 
Jenna: Next, Roger and Jane are at the dinner for Manischewitz.
Roger shares Ginsberg's campaign idea.
He compliments Jane, and then the younger son of the client shows up.
He says he'll split chateaubriand, which is a steak served for two,
and Jane is up for that.
And there's a really cutting line when Roger says, “I thought you liked the crab rangoon.” And Jane says, “I just had some.” [Laughing]
 
So Jane won't be lonely very long.
 
Steve: It's a great scene too, because we see Roger trying to get the Manischewitz patriarch on his side. Bringing Jane along has worked perfectly, but there's a price to pay for Roger here as well.
And I think he's got to feel a little jilted by the fact that there's this younger, more handsome man who's, who's got the eye of his wife.
So he's, he's going to get the business, it looks like, but he's paying a personal price for it.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, the creative team finds out they sold the Sno Ball pitch, the one with the devil.
Ginsberg is disappointed, and when he finds out they didn't even present it,
he's livid.
And Peggy, who I think would normally be bothered by the injustice,
seems a little bit satisfied to see Ginsberg unhappy, since he got Roger's secret account and she didn't.
 
Steve: Yeah, absolutely. I think Peggy shows a little schadenfreude. Ginsberg has been gloating, has been puffing himself up around there, so it makes sense to me that his fellow creatives are not exactly upset that he's, he's taken a little stumble here.
 
Jenna: In the cab on the way back from the dinner, Roger convinces Jane to show him her new apartment, and they end up having sex.
And I'm slightly surprised by this, because Roger was so happy to be free of her. But in an episode that's all about people being jealous, it makes sense that seeing the younger guy's interest in Jane makes him a little more interested in her again.
And she is gorgeous.
 
Steve: Yeah, she's so gorgeous in these scenes.
And then the following scene, the next morning, and she seems hesitant to get involved. And this interaction isn't purely physical or an escape. There is some sentiment here that is going to affect both of them.
 
Jenna: And if Jane didn't care about Roger at all, it would be so much easier. But she really did have feelings for him. So even though they both know better, but she slips.
This is something she's lost, and, you know, it feels like she can grab a piece of it one more time.
 
 
Steve: And speaking of conditional morality,
the next scene cuts to Pete on the train, chatting with Howard, and Howard's blabbing on about spending time with his girlfriend in the city, and being trapped with his family in the suburbs.
 
Pete can be so judgy, even as he gets so offended when others judge him. He's had an affair with this guy's wife, and now he's judging the fact that this guy doesn't respect his own wife.
And Howard makes a comment about, I guess the grass is always greener in response to Pete's response, a provocative remark that maybe he'll go to Howard's house and screw his wife. It's a perfect Pete moment.
 
Jenna: I feel like the fandom should throw a little more disgust Howard's way, when we're all hating on Greg and Lou, for what it's worth.
 
You can't miss Howard talking about being trapped with his family for Thanksgiving. And Pete is so disgusted on Beth's behalf. And Pete feels trapped by his family, too.
 
Steve: Maybe Howard should go to Trudy's place,
and then Pete will go and spend Thanksgiving. Maybe that's what it is.
We're advocating for wife swapping here.
I'm surprised that you are, but, you know, your point’s heard.
 
Jenna: That's another podcast.
 
Steve: I'll talk to you later, Gerald.
[Laughing]
 
Back at the firm, Ginsberg's in the elevator with Don Draper.
I love this scene because we know Michael is a loose cannon,
and now he's going to take a run at the king.
 
Jenna: It bothers me that the two most famous Don Draper memes are used so widely to express insults out of context.
And we talked about the first one in The Suitcase, when Don tells Peggy, That's what the money's for!” so it's easy to grab it and laugh, but really, she has a valid complaint against him.
 
And here with Ginsberg, Don is a liar and a cheat:
“I feel sorry for you.”
“I don't think about you at all.”
He does think about Ginsberg. He thinks about him so much, he'll spend an evening away from his family looking through his sketches.
He'll spend team meetings trying to make colleagues prefer his idea,
even if his idea is not the best one.
 
So we can say “I don't think about you at all” and laugh at what a great throwaway line it is.
And we don't want him to crumple, he's our lead and everything,
but the truth is that Ginsberg is right to pity him.
Ginsberg has a million ideas, and Don had to cheat to win this round.
 
Steve: What I'll say is, I think Don's comments are designed not to reveal anything to Ginsberg and not to show Ginsberg that he is scoring, he is landing punches here.
 
And to me it really parallels the earlier conversation where Sally does that with Betty and denies Betty the satisfaction of feeling like her little plan has worked.
 
Like you mentioned, Don's untruths and presentation are designed to show like water off a duck's back. And he doesn't think about Ginsberg and it's just Don running his creative department the way he wants to.
 
We know that's not true. It's only as Don walks down the hallway and we can see the fake face replaced by the less happy, less content face.
 
Jenna: It's ick on Don Draper's face. You can see it clearly as he walks away from Ginsberg.
He knows he did him dirty and and he's ashamed, and he should be.
 
 
In the next scene, Roger and Jane are having a morning after in her new apartment.
And once again he's cheerful and she's teary that this happened. What did you think about Jane's reaction here?
 
Steve: I'm of two minds on it, because I think there's this privileged, spoiled brat aspect of oh, I want to start a new life and having a new apartment to start my new life.
 
But I also have this emotional sympathy for her in that she's trying to separate from Roger and we know that she had real feelings for him, and she's hurting from this breakup.
I think there is a point to it that it serves to sully this possible new start and break with the past.
 
And I think as she confronts Roger with it,
his reaction, you know, he doesn't dismiss it and concedes that it really was an awful thing to do and he feels terrible about it.
 
Jenna: I was very surprised by Roger owning that or receiving that and acknowledging it from her. I didn't expect that from him.
 
Steve: He's so slippery and he's so quick witted that I think it would be very easy for him to deny it.
I think to own it in the moment and be honest and admit it.
I think this is Roger Sterling at his best, ironically, several hours after, perhaps he was something far less than his best.
 
Jenna: In an episode when Mona has that great line about I thought you left me because I got old, but it was because you did.
Roger's response to that is, well, I haven't had a coronary since.
 
So even though Mona dumped a really big truth on him, he quipped back. So to your point, the fact that he doesn't to Jane, it's a new look for him.
 
I might sound vaguely unhinged by this comparison, but I'm gonna make it anyway.
If you've ever gotten a brand new journal and you have the special markers and it's pristine and it's full of possibility,
and then maybe you write something stupid and you regret it,
or you think of a brilliant way to format your writing a couple weeks after you started, and you can change it going forward, but you're just going to know there's that part in there that's wrong - I relate to that.
 
I get Jane's need to start over and have a place Roger hasn't touched, so it just belongs to her and it's perfect and clean and at the same time he's paying for the apartment.
So it isn't a totally fresh start.
 
And it is hard to feel sorry for Jane.
She has a Manhattan apartment, and remember that time she told Joan she gets a nosebleed anywhere above 86th Street? I mean, I think we can assume she's going to get through this.
 
Steve: He'll just have to keep buying her apartments until she can get over it.
 
 
Jenna: Next we see Megan preparing for Thanksgiving dinner. It turns out Julia got the soap opera part, and you can see Megan is jealous about it.
And when Don starts to open the sliding glass door, Megan says, there's a smog emergency with toxic air.
I don't want that in here, she says.
 
So just like she doesn't want any of Betty's poison,
she doesn't want any of the work toxicity.
They're going to shut out what they can to hang on to their happiness together.
 
 
Steve: And then we cut to the final scene of the episode, where we've got Henry carving the perfect turkey, and we have Bobby and Sally talking about what they're grateful for. And Betty says that she's grateful that she has everything she wants.
 
It's a painful moment, and knowing just how fortunate Betty is in her life and how much there is to be thankful for, this focus on what it's lacking just emphasizes the theme of the episode where this jealousy is so radioactive, and infects not just those who feel the jealousy,
but also those who are then subjected to it when we behave badly.
 
Jenna: I'm so embarrassed for Betty. I actually think about this comment every Thanksgiving.
I think it's supposed to be her recommitting to her life and her happiness, and she just can't let go of comparing herself to say, I'm thankful that I have everything I want, and that no one has anything better.
It feels like something Regina George would put on a T shirt, not something you say in front of your children at Thanksgiving.
 
Steve: Well, and it's just, I think back to her, her fatal flaw here, right, is she's not looking in herself and defining for her what it is she wants.
She's someone I think has the potential to be very happy, but she's not going to let herself.
 
 
Jenna: The closing song, Sweepin’ the Clouds Away is from 1930.
The lyrics talk about not feeling down and being a determined optimist.
 
We saw so much envy in this episode from almost every character and it's not a charming look on anybody, but we can see how hard it is to turn around sometimes.
 
 
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