Mad Men C to Z S5E7 At the Codfish Ball Podcast Transcript

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Mad Men C to Z S5E7 At the Codfish Ball Transcript
 
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each re-watch.
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men C to Z.
 
Jenna: This is season five, episode seven At the Codfish Ball.
 
This episode was written by Jonathan Igla, who has written 30 episodes of Mad Men, and he's also a producer of Bridgerton.
The episode was directed by Michael Uppendahl, who directed 11 episodes of Mad Men, and he has also directed six episodes of Fargo, nine episodes of American Horror Story, and episodes of The Walking Dead, Glee, and Weeds.
 
I'm a huge fan of this particular episode, although when I start breaking it down, there's a lot of sadness and darkness, so I'm not sure why I enjoy this one so much.
 
Steve: For me, I get a lot of pleasure out of the introduction of Emile and Marie as the parents of Megan and their interplay with each other, and then also their interactions with their daughter and Don.
 
Jenna: This episode begins and ends with Sally talking to Glen on the phone. Glen asked Sally about the Spoonful album, if she's listened to it yet.
This would have been Daydream, which came out in March of 1966.
 
Steve: While Sally is on the phone with Glen, Pauline trips over the phone cord and hurts herself. Sally has to take kind of an adult role here, nursing Pauline.
 
Jenna: You have to be a certain age to remember this, but phones used to have wires, and sometimes they were wall mounted in very public family areas so you had no privacy for your conversation. Everybody knew your business, they knew who called and how long you talked, and they could also hear your entire end of the conversation.

  . . . continued
 
I don't really miss that, but this is why Sally would drag her phone into a private room and the cord would be dangling across the hallway in the first place, because if you had a very long extension cord for your phone, then you could have a little bit of privacy.
 
Steve: She tells Bobby to go get some water. She comforts Pauline, then she ends up calling for help. And we'll find out later that all the adults are quite impressed that Sally was able to handle this little domestic emergency.
 
Jenna: And we also see that Sally and Glen have kept up their connection, because Sally knows Glen broke up with his girlfriend, and Glen knows Sally hates having Pauline stay with them, so clearly, these phone calls are a regular thing.
 
 
Next up, we get to meet Megan's parents, Marie and Emile Calvet.
Marie is played by Julia Ormond, and you should just know her because she's fabulous.
But you may have seen her in the Audrey Hepburn role in Sabrina with Harrison Ford, the 1995 version. She was also in First Knight with Richard Gere, Legends of the Fall and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button with Brad Pitt, and she has a lot of other recent work as well.
 
If we could wish upon a star for Mad Men scenes, I think I would love one between Marie Calvet and Mona Sterling, because I kind of feel like they would be friends who go out for pastel cocktails and they'd laugh at Roger. But we don't actually get that in this series. But, you know, I’d love it.
 
And then Emile, Megan's father, is played by Ronald Guttman, who is originally from Brussels.
He's been in a ton of things, too: All My Children, 27 dresses, And the Band Played On, and a bunch of other projects. But to me, he will always be the shifty engineer from The Hunt for Red October.
 
This couple together, to me, is so outstanding. They bring in all their baggage, literally, into the room. And there's so much background in the writing, even though it's revealed in these very short lines.
So you get a whole sense of their relationship in a very short scene.
 
Steve: And it does seem they have their scar tissue and baggage with them. So they're immediately jousting with each other verbally, in French, which Don, of course, can't understand.
But they're not making much effort to conceal it or put on a happy face for their relationship, for the benefit of Don.
 
The other thing we note here is we know that Megan has married a man who's older than her. From the looks of it, Marie is somewhat younger than Emile, so there seems to be a parallel there between each woman's choice of partner.
 
Jenna: You might not immediately say Megan married her father if you watch Don and Emile talk, but she definitely knows what it is to keep a difficult man happy. And they do have their similarities:
They're both cheating.
They're both observant.
They're both devoted to their work.
They're suspicious of others.
There are just a lot of things that Emile and Don are alike.
 
And there's this standout line when Don mentions Emile's book, and Emile says, “My daughter pretends to find interesting what I find interesting because she loves me.”
And that pretty much unwraps the end of this episode, because we suspect that's true about Megan and Don as well.
 
Steve: I guess the key difference here is Emile is very clearly an intellectual with the stereotypical insecurities of an intellectual, whereas I don't think we would describe Don Draper as that.
 
Jenna: Yes. And that's another great line in this scene. So Emile remarks about how the apartment is so decadent.
And I find it interesting - we're surrounded by so many people who want more in this show.
And then when characters point out the excess, they seem odd or eccentric.
 
And Marie's great line in response is, “Emile is confused. His eyes and his politics are having a fight.”
And I love that, because humans are so contradictory.
 
So in this show, we see so many people who are loudly proclaiming belief in one thing, and then they do the opposite.
But I also, I feel like the show is taking jabs at the idea that attachment to things could be excessive or misguided.
Because we saw that, remember, with Roy, Midge's boyfriend, or when Stephanie was talking about, you know, "so stop buying things."
And later, when a certain character's child is in a commune peeling potatoes, right?
 
There's a certain derision for that stance of not being attached to things.
And I think it's fair and good for writing to point out the foibles and inconsistencies when people are spouting their ideologies.
 
But I think it's just really funny that a show known for its prestige is really determined to mock pretentious people.
It sort of goes out of its way to do that.
 
Steve: Almost like, you know, when we jump in at the start of the seasons, and they don't really give us a recap of the prior season and let us get situated before they launch into the next season.
They just throw you in the middle of it and expect you to tread water and start swimming along with the season.
I feel like this scene accomplishes that with these two new characters instantly at the start of a single episode. And it's really enjoyable.
 
Jenna: The last noteworthy line in this scene is that Don bought a particular cognac for Marie and Emile says,
“She has convinced you she is particular. I am the proof she is not.”
 
And that line was so sad to me. He's cutting her down for her pretension, but hitting himself for being disappointing.
And it's really super awkward for Don, who's just - it feels like he's trying to make this work with the in-laws.
 
Steve: Yeah. And it's kind of delicious because we know Don Draper likes to resort to, this is what people do, or this is what they're supposed to do. And Emile and Marie just don't leave any room for that.
 
He's trying to behave the way you're supposed to when you meet the in-laws and keep them happy. And they're supposed to be polite and put on a happy face and act like they have a happy marriage, and they have no time for that.
 
 
Jenna: Speaking of couples we also love to see on screen together,
we get Roger and Mona having a drink, now that Jane's out of the picture.
It's a shockingly honest conversation between them.
 
And it's notable that Mona says about Jane,
“I always thought she'd leave you.”
And didn't we think that too? I mean, didn't we expect pretentious, out-for-herself at all costs Jane to eventually dump Roger?
 
Steve: Oh, absolutely.
And it just feels like a very deep conversation while simultaneously being just this casual catch up between the two of them. And I guess what makes it deep is there's so much that's gone on before with them. They know each other so well.
 
And here Mona is encountering Roger in this moment where I think some of his pretensions are stripped away. And in many ways post-acid trip, he's more honest and forthcoming about sort of where he is in life.
 
And I think this surprises Mona, because I would guess she would have anticipated him trying to prop up and defend his prior choices and be a little defensive.
 
He didn't marry Jane because she had gotten old, you know, which is her fear. It was because he had.
So now she's put it back onto Roger and, and having him own this thing that probably she's been wrestling with herself.
So again, I just really appreciate how much is packed into this brief scene.
 
Jenna: I feel almost sure that Mona's line here in this scene had to have been saved for some juicy moment in advance. Like I'm sure somebody thought of that great line and then they constructed the scene around it because it's fantastic and true.
 
And I think Mona has a gravitas with this understanding that Betty could not say to Don about Megan. I don't think Betty would ever get there.
And Mona is smart enough to have this realization and just move on with her life.
 
And I don't think Betty ever completely understands why Don cheated or why he picked Megan.
And I don't think he knows, either. I think he just took action and he's trying to make it work.
 
And it's lovely from Mona, because she was so hurt when Roger left, and now we get to see her thriving without him, and free of most of her resentment, it seems.
 
Steve: I also like the agency of Mona. When Roger talks about one of his insecurities, which is he didn't earn what he has, that it came through the advantages he started with in life.
 
And Mona throws that right back. She's got no time for that. And she says she's not gonna feel guilty about what she has, and she doesn't care if Roger didn't earn it.
 
Even as we see post-acid-trip Roger thinking deeply about it, and what's brought him to this place in his life and maybe what he has and what he's earned, and what's the difference between the two.
 
 
Jenna: Back at Don and Megan's house, since Grandma Pauline was injured, now Sally and Bobby show up to meet Emile and Marie.
And this moment where Don prompts Sally to tell his in-laws about Pauline's accident - I have had this moment with my father, where he was prompting me to tell a specific story, and it felt so forced and scripted to show off to the relatives and it's ugh - I feel for Sally here.
 
So she's supposed to show off about how she handled Pauline responsibly.
So she says what's expected, but she outright lies.
She said Pauline tripped over one of Gene's toys and Pauline tripped over the phone cord,
the phone cord Sally was using when Sally didn't answer her about going to dinner.
 
So it might not be a big deal in the scheme of things in this story, but it felt sad to see Sally taking after her parents and the lying department just so readily.
 
Steve: Everybody dutifully praises Sally's good handling of the emergency.
And then again we see an example of how Marie is not constrained by norms and expectations, you know, she excuses herself, basically goes to bed, falling asleep with a lit cigarette.
 
We've seen so little of Marie, but it just seems like she's completely unconstrained. She's going to do what she wants to do. She's already an interesting character despite the paucity of exposure to her and her world.
 
Jenna: Also at the dinner when Sally and Bobby are coming in,
Bobby points out they're having fish for dinner, and Sally doesn't like it. Make a note of that for later.
 
Megan made spaghetti for her instead. Marie remembers that used to be Megan's favorite, too.
If you Google Megan Draper and spaghetti, you can find multiple videos featuring all the times Megan makes or talks about making spaghetti.
 
And it does come up a fair amount in the series, but I would like to point out she also makes coq au vin pretty regularly, so she's not a one trick pony, you spaghetti haters.
 
Steve: Here's another example of how Megan is being a good stand in mother. You know, she's making special food for the children so they're not stuck eating the yucky adult food.
And to me, it just shows her thoughtfulness and consideration of the needs of the kids.
 
Jenna: There's also this tiny moment when Bobby asks Emile about giving shots, because he knows that Emile is a doctor.
And Emile seems impressed in spite of himself when Don explains the origin of the doctor title from the Middle Ages. So that's not the type of Dr. Emile is, right, who gives shots.
 
And I think there's a snobbishness here that I feel from the writing about intellectuals who think they're the only people who know things.
And I like this tiny moment where Emile is noticing Don, you know, this self-made man, and being impressed that he knows this, this bit of information to pass on to his kid.
 
Steve: Well, and I think it's a very complimentary explanation that Don gives to Bobby, which I think appeals to Emile's fragile ego, which we've already seen evidence of.
 
Jenna: And we talked about Megan's mother going to bed, and Megan goes to check up on her.
And we know Don has issues with drinking.
And here's Megan caring for someone who's had too much to drink in her mother.
 
She's chosen Don with his restless work energy like her father, and maybe some alcoholic demons like her mother.
She believes she can save him and take care of him.
And you kind of get her whole story right here.
 
 
Steve: The next scene cuts to after hours where Stan, Michael, Peggy, and her boyfriend, Abe are having a late dinner. And if Abe wants to spend any time with Peggy, he's going to have to show up at the office and dine with her there.
 
Jenna: Okay, I don't want to be Michael Ginsberg, but I sort of admire his habit of asking questions as specifically as he does, because he's asking Peggy about Heinz, so clearly he's moving over to that account.
And he goes, “So is he a down-to-earth, steel town, German-Polish, drinks beer from a can kind of a guy?” which is amazing. It's an amazing question.
 
And her answer, he's boring, he has a daughter, is not even that important. But I love that piece of writing there.
 
It's also interesting seeing Abe witnessing Peggy with her team, and it feels like a little bit of jealousy, because she's so comfortable with all the teasing and the arguing.
 
And she's relaxed and at home here with the amount of time that Peggy spends with these people, I think he's wondering, do they actually know her better?
 
Steve: Yeah, and I think Abe probably also harbors some of those same insecurities and fears maybe that someone like Emile possesses.
You know, Peggy's in the business world. These people are direct reports to her. So it's a sign of Peggy's status and success in the business world.
It's her team and she's one of the boys getting along with them.
 
And I just wonder for Abe who's, you know, I think prides himself on the counterculture side of things and I think he's got to see her success and it's going to make him a little uncomfortable.
Here's Peggy, part of the machine and succeeding in the machine.
 
Jenna: I'm not trying to throw any shade at Charlie Hofheimer,
but after Abe leaves, Stan tells Peggy “He's too good looking for you.”
And my reaction is Abe is too good looking for her? Really?
It really takes me out of the scene. I, I have a problem with that line.
 
And I know it's supposed to be about Stan and Peggy being honest and comfortable, because her work family is her family. So they tell each other things that they wouldn't say in front of other people.
But I don't see it that way.
 
Steve: I don't see him as telling that to her as a friend. I see that as him measuring himself against Abe because he has aspirations for Peggy. He's trying to undermine that relationship somehow.
 
And I think he picks a hilariously bad way to do it because really it's a put down of Peggy, rather than a put down of Abe as being unsuitable for her.
To me it just shows how ham-handed Stan can be. But, but I perceived it as a, a male sort of competitive comment as being the origins or the motivation for it.
And that is with the benefit of 2020 hindsight as this is a re-watch.
 
Jenna: I was going to say, I feel like we should put a spoiler tag on that discussion.
I will say what's coming much later - it really came out of the blue to me, my first watch and then ever after, I watched very carefully for things to see.
Okay, was it actually coming? Was there a Stan and Peggy comfort level with each other along the way?
 
I still don't see this necessarily as Stan thinking he has a chance with Peggy, so making this comment to make her question her relationship with Abe.
I feel like it's their comfort together and he's narrating and just feeling free to judge her, because they're so comfortable with each other, and spend all this time together, and he always is throwing out comments about, you know, that move in the pitch was suicidal but brave.
 
And, you know, you're so competitive, you race people to the bathroom and he's just always making those types of comments.
But I feel like it's more how much they know each other than it's romantic. But, but it is interesting to watch for that as we go. And I'm so sorry if you're a first time watcher because that's a pretty big spoiler.
 
Steve: No, no apologies from me. This is a re-watch so we don't lean into the spoilers, but we can't avoid them 100% either, so . . .
 
Jenna: And I think in this episode, particularly, the contrast between Stan and Abe really does matter because when we're looking at what are Peggy's expectations, and what are her imaginings for herself and her future, versus who is she and what will truly make her happy, I think that's -
they both represent those extremes pretty well.
 
 
In bed that night, Don and Megan are talking. And again, I feel like there's some honesty that's only shared in really intimate spaces between them.
 
She reveals her father won't spend any cash during sightseeing.
And she lobbies to get a babysitter now that the kids are here, so her parents can still see Don receive his award as they planned.
 
And then Don reveals a little discomfort. He says nothing's going to make Megan's father like him.
So I appreciate that they are being truthful with each other. And this is a hard thing, you know, Megan - she doesn't have to, but she's revealing something uncomfortable about her father, you know, that he's too proud to ask for cash to buy himself a pretzel.
 
And Don is revealing some insecurity about trying to please her father and feeling unable to do it. So I just think, even though it seems like those are negative things they're talking about, it's very positive that they're sharing them together.
 
Steve: Well, and we also learn more about Marie, because Megan calls out that her mother is competitive and touches Don six times in a single hour.
 
Jenna: She’s French! Yeah, that’s not what that is. [Laughing]
 
Steve: And again, I think it's very illuminating for who Marie is. And we know that the age difference between Marie and Don is diminished, because Don is significantly older than Megan.
Maybe some of it is just to irritate Emile, who's sitting there watching this occur.
 

Jenna: The next morning, when Megan goes into Don's office, he's reading a French dictionary on the couch, which I think is really cute.
And Megan wants to share her idea for a new Heinz pitch. It's based on serving spaghetti through the generations.
 
And Don is so thrilled with Megan here.
It's the first time he has ever viewed her as an actual copywriter.
 
A few episodes ago, we talked about not seeing independence in Megan in the season leading up to this.
And you blamed yourself as a viewer for not looking to her to have that agency.
And I said I'd been watching for it, and I didn't see it until Faye was out of the picture.
 
But I think your point is really important here in the context of Don's gaze.
Don hasn't been looking to see any special talent or originality in Megan.
And then he finally opens himself up to the possibility here.
 
But it's like, who have you been with this whole time, right?
This beautiful person who makes your life easy, but you haven't really seen her or known her, so he hasn't really looked at her as a whole person.
And then he sees this and he's so thrilled. It's like bonus material.
 
Steve: Yeah. And as a viewer, I'm watching it at first wondering, is Don just humoring her and being kind? And it quickly becomes evident that, no, that's not the case, that he believes the idea has actual merit. And he calls in Stan and Michael, and this immediately flips the whole Heinz pitch.
 
And as we hear from the chatter between Stan and Michael, they also concur that there's real substance to this. So it is very much a coming out party for Megan as a legitimate creative person.
 
And we can see, I think, the genuine thrill and happiness it gives Don Draper, that his pretty wife, who he was, I think, humoring with the position, is actually demonstrating that she's got some chops and could actually merit the position.
 
Jenna: But I also found this piece interesting:
When Peggy went to Don about having problems with Joey,
Don told her, you don't want me in the middle of this.
And he was right about it for the benefit of her independence and her career.
 
And here Megan admits she doesn't want Don to say that it was his idea to the team,
that really she wants Don to give her credit for it,
but it seems like he's showing off about Megan that her great idea is another reason he was smart to marry her, as opposed to setting her up for success with the team.
 
Because we see in a scene later, Ginsberg and Stan are irritated because they have to change the pitch again. They're okay with it being a better idea, but instead of letting Megan talk to the team about it, Don just says, we're running with a better idea, change it.
And that doesn't really do anything for Megan professionally. It's not a great way for the boss to handle it.
 
I do appreciate they make a point to show Peggy supporting Megan.
So when she asks if her idea was any good, and they're like, yeah.
And she says, “Good for her.”
And it would be easy for Peggy to be bitter over Heinz and, and also over Megan's relationship with Don, but they don't do that same old tired women-hating-women plot. And I'm glad.
 
Steve: I think it's another tip of the hat to the professionalism of Peggy, because like you say, there are emotional and personal reasons why maybe she would feel competitive, especially with regard to the Heinz account.
And Peggy pushes all that aside in order to be professional. And I think it's not just for show.
She is inside her own head, really consciously leaning into the idea that Megan is part of her team, and the team needs to succeed.
 
 
Jenna: After Abe reaches out to Peggy, saying it's important, he wants to see her, they make a date. And this rattles Peggy a little bit. So she goes to talk to Joan about it.
 
And this is another really interesting women-supporting-women thing, but it's not the happy female bonding scene that we love between Peggy and Joan, because they come at it so differently.
 
Peggy assumes that Abe wants to talk about something bad.
And in the last episode when Peggy and Abe were fighting, he accused her of always wanting to push the button on the whole thing.
And there was also that other time when she said, said, oh, I knew something bad would happen.
Like she has doubts that she has cosmic permission to have a personal relationship and professional success, right? She's always worried she's going to lose whatever makes her happy.
 
Steve: I love Joan's take-down of men and their habits. So she makes it clear to Peggy, like, men don't take the time to end things. They just ignore you until you insist on a declaration of hate.

So from Joan's logic, if he wants to get together with her and there's something he wants to say to her that's important, it's almost inevitably going to be a positive thing.
 
And it's funny how this flips Peggy's perspective on the whole thing. And then she starts - goes from sort of worst case scenario planning to the opposite, thinking, well, how, how good or how big could this important thing to say end up being?
And we can see Peggy's imagination running away with her a bit.
 
Jenna: Well, Joan plants that, right? Peggy had not considered it might be a proposal. Joan specifically predicts that. And even then, Peggy says, well, that's you, right?
It's not going to be a proposal for me. For you, Joan, it would be.
 
But it's interesting that Peggy is so excited by this possibility,
But I don't know that I'm excited for her in this moment, the first time through. I think Abe is a good person to expand Peggy's worldview, but I don't know that he's her person.
 
So when you first see this and you think, okay, Abe's going to propose, are you really excited that Peggy is going to get married? Or are you like, no, Peggy, no?
Or what do you, what did you think?
 
Steve: No, I'm, I'm the same way.
They seem to get along well together, but the relationship feels fairly immature to me at this point.
I don't know, maybe I'm just too old and closed-minded, but I don't support anybody running off and getting married.
 
Jenna: And then Joan suggests that Peggy goes shopping for something to wear to this dinner.
And we know Peggy has a whole bunch of practical business things in her closet, but not a lot of soft, romantic accepting-proposals outfits.
So that's exactly what Joan would tell her.
 
 
Steve: Back in Don's office, Roger wants to talk about the American Cancer Society dinner that's coming up, where Don is getting his big award, and Roger's eyeing that as a major opportunity for them to solicit new clients.
Don is sort of putting the cooler on that and suggesting that he shouldn't go overboard.
 
And then the conversation shifts to talking about the in-laws being in town.
And I love Don's description of Emile as a leftist sleeping with his daughter, almost a Communist. And then he lets Roger know that Emile hates him.
 
Jenna: Yes, we get a truth call-out in this scene, and Don describes Megan's father being a Communist, or a Socialist, or a Maoist, or something that makes him hate me and what I do.
 
And that's such a lie. Because if Megan's father hates Don, it's for not making his daughter happy enough. It's not for being in advertising.
 
I thought this scene was a little bit similar to the one with Peggy and Joan, where Joan is suggesting a positive outcome is coming, and Peggy is doubtful.
 
And here Roger's optimistic about all the business they're going to get at this dinner.
And Don has trouble believing things will be okay after the letter he wrote against smoking and tobacco.
 
Steve: I love when Roger observes that often people are looking at you, but they're not really thinking about you.
And he seems to think this is some sort of profound realization that perhaps is attributable to his awakening under LSD.
And Don just shuts it down and says, a lot of people have realized that without taking LSD [Laughing].
 
 
Jenna: In the next scene, Peggy shows up for her dinner with Abe at Minetta Tavern.
This is a real restaurant that opened in 1937. Its About page says that the place was frequented by writers like Eugene O’Neill, Ernest Hemingway, Dylan Thomas, and,  “various poets and pugilists.”
So it's a place known for writers and fighters. And I can't decide if that is perfect for Peggy, or maybe a bad omen.
 
Peggy walks in and she's wearing this pink dress with a bow. And she looks pretty, but it's such a costume to me.
I mean, this - she's trying on this other life. This is what she thinks girls wear to receive proposals, instead of finding a way to look like herself, only dressed up.
 
And I think it's brilliant costuming by Janie Bryant, because she's trying hard.
But Abe is not the right fit.
So this doesn't look like a dress, like, this is Peggy's best look ever.
She doesn't look like herself.
 
Steve: Well, and I think the whole scene is a little surreal in the sense that we know Peggy is spun up thinking she's about to receive a proposal for marriage.
And we can see Abe is nervous. And this is obviously a fancier place than they would normally go to.
And he's got something important to ask her.
 
So when he springs the question and it ends up being simply, you know, do you want to live together?
Peggy's response is very much as if she'd gotten the proposal she expected to receive.
She seems happy, excited. She says yes.
 
It just feels a little disconnected to me because I'm thinking, Peggy, did you hear what Abe said? Like, he's not offering marriage. He just wants to live together.
And it's only at the very end of the scene when we sort of see that,
I don't know, intellectual version of Peggy who's sorted through the reality of what he suggested.
And we see the mask slip a little bit.
 
I guess the lack of emotional thrill for Peggy at this prospect. You know, not that she's upset,
but it was not what she was expecting.
 
Jenna: I think, at first when he says I think we should move in together.
She thinks there's more coming, because she's very passive.
And she says, “How would we ever do that?”
So I think she still thinks the question is coming, that he's going to ask her to marry him.
And he doesn't ever say anything more about that.
 
And Elisabeth Moss is such a gifted actress, because you can see her genuine thrill at receiving a proposal. And then when it becomes clear that's not what this is, she keeps her smile on. And it isn't just a smile for Abe, it's a smile for herself.
 
We have mentioned a lot of different lies in this episode.
And Peggy here has this moment where she decides to lie to herself, that this is an outcome she's happy about.
And when he asks, do you still want to eat? And Peggy answers, “I do.”
This is a disappointment dressed up in a smile.
 
She wants it to be a beautiful moment together. She wants it to be a good outcome.
And I think - I don't know, maybe she knows marriage isn't right for them at this point anyway, but I also think she wants to star in a fairy tale in the abstract.
So I feel her disappointment. And then at the end, her face - it's a sadness, even though she's trying to convince herself it isn't.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think you put it the right way. It's a lie to herself. It's a spin,
a positive spin she's putting in her own head to try and make this a happier moment.
I agree with you - Elisabeth Moss is outstanding in this scene. And that disappointed look at the very end of it really says it all.
 
 
Jenna: Next we see Ken and Cynthia, Don and Megan, and Raymond and Alice from Heinz having dinner together.
And something's off. Heinz has been in New York a little bit earlier than Ken knew about.
They mentioned seeing the new Edward Albee play. Of course, that's the author of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
And this play would have been A Delicate Balance. And that's a play that tackles pain points in families and friendships. So, again, always a fitting choice for the pop culture reference.
 
Steve: During the dinner, Megan goes to the bathroom with Raymond's wife, Alice, and Alice leaks that Heinz has already decided to leave the firm, and is taking their business elsewhere.
 
Jenna: She doesn't say it explicitly, but Megan's smart enough to read exactly what this is.
 
Steve: Once she gets back to the table, and they now know they're dead on arrival, Megan tees up the pitch. A new pitch for the new idea that they haven't had a chance to present to Heinz.
 
Jenna: Yes. I think it's notable that Megan pushes Don to share the idea. She doesn't share it herself.
And I do think there's some sexism with Raymond not receiving Peggy's pitches previously.
So this is really smart, because hearing it from Don is really what Raymond wants. He wants it to be Don's idea. He doesn't want it to be from Don Draper's wife.
 
When Raymond suggests they use the same mother and child actors for each scene, Megan also pretends like she hadn't already suggested that to Don. Like, oh, Raymond, what a great idea, we hadn't thought about that, playing him so perfectly.
 
And Don didn't want to keep fighting for this account. Later he says, I was just going to yell at his stupid face or something.
And Raymond takes a beat and makes them wait for his approval.
 
And then Don does the thing Peggy tried to do for her idea. She tried to explain how special and creative it was. And Don says, you know - Ken is like, oh, we were dancing around some other things.
And Don says, no. This is a once in a lifetime idea.
And he just leaves that there.
 
And everybody is hanging on to see what's going to happen. And even Raymond's wife is like, oh, come on, Raymond. It's great. It's everything -
And he's like, shh, you know.
And then when Raymond finally does accept the campaign, you can see Don is so impressed by Megan, just absolutely thrilled.
 
And we've seen Betty perform at these things really well for him.
We've never seen him look at Betty that way.
 
Steve: It's just a complete win for Megan in this moment. And we can see later Don's complete enthusiasm for her.
 
 
 
Jenna: In the office the next morning, Peggy's getting coffee, and Joan comes in.
And Peggy is determinedly cheerful when she says, oh, it was better than a proposal. We're moving in together.
 
And I feel like Joan is really generous with her approval for Peggy here.
She's not elated for her, but she says the polite thing.
And I feel like Joan's fairy tale burned up so thoroughly that maybe she's just taking a new look at Peggy and thinking, you know, maybe she's onto something here. Maybe this is the right thing for you, Peggy.
Even though we know season one Joan would have been scandalized.
 
And honestly, I'm kind of feeling like moving in together could be the best outcome for Peggy, anyway.
We've seen all of these marriages eroding, and Abe and Peggy don't seem quite perfect together. I don't know if anybody really ships them.
 
So it would be pretty shocking to live together at that time period, but we've seen Peggy being very modern, so it's not out of character for her.
And I kind of think she assumes that eventually they might get married, right? I have the sense that's her thought.
 
Steve: Well, and I would assume that most people looking to move in together would be with an eye to the future, that the relationship would continue.
 
And I agree with you. I think Joan is very kind here.
I wonder if Joan senses any guilt about sort of pumping Peggy's expectations up in the earlier meeting.
And then I love at the end part where she sort of relates it to her own situation, saying that, you know, a piece of paper may not mean all that much.
And she alludes to her own situation where, you know, Greg's piece of paper from the army is more important to him than his piece of paper, his marriage certificate with her, which I think really shows Joan's pain and hurt from her own situation and perhaps reflects Joan reassessing, just the way you stated to say maybe we need to deviate from some of the norms, because they aren't really serving us particularly well.
 
Jenna: And you can see with this statement that Peggy is disappointed and trying to convince herself it's what she wants.
When Joan says I think it's very romantic, and Peggy says, “It is, isn't it? We don't need a piece of paper.”
 
Here is Peggy trying to tell herself this thing. She tells herself that she wants this traditional down-on-one-knee, sweep-her-off-her-feet proposal, and at the same time she wants somebody who's going to be really patient with her working 15 hour days.
She wants both of those things.
 
Steve: It's just difficult to square them. You know, Peggy's at a time and place when there were far few fewer women trying to pull off both. So in many ways she's a trailblazer at this point.
She probably doesn't have any other role models to follow.
 
So it's just hard I think from the modern perspective to try and put ourselves in the head of someone like that where, where you can't turn to all these examples of people maybe, you know, or lives that are playing out that way.
 
 
Jenna: So Peggy goes from her supportive conversation with Joan and tries to offer that same support to Megan as she congratulates her about the Heinz pitch.
And I feel like Peggy's warmth to Megan feels absolutely sincere too.
She's not bitter, she's not begrudging, but she is detecting that Megan isn't as thrilled about this as Peggy would be.
 
And when Peggy says this is as good as this job gets,
it seems like that is a big red flag for Megan, who is not fulfilled with this, even though she was excited to come up with the idea and she and Don were both really happy that they sold it.
 
But this is the thing I love about the show.
You don't see this complexity most of the time.
There are people who are really good at things they don't love doing,
and they have to make career choices that, you know, might not be fulfilling or might not pay well,
and it's just not as simple as getting hired and going to work.
I love this tension and this complexity.
 
Steve: I also, at this point,
don't know enough about Megan's motivations to really know why it is this isn't floating her boat, because I don't know what that other thing is yet that she aspires to. Why is this a miss?
 
Jenna: I love this parallel between Peggy trying to convince herself she's happy about moving in with Abe, juxtaposed with Megan trying to convince others she's happy about selling her Heinz idea.
Because neither of these lies Peggy and Megan are telling themselves are malicious.
 
But we do these things, right? Humans try to convince ourselves we are something or we aren't something, and we think we should have the right answers, but we don't know always know when or how to initiate change.
It can be difficult when you're at a crossroads to know exactly,
you know, be yourself. Well, who is that? Who am I going to be?
And you see both Peggy and Megan with valid options.
They've got reasonable doubts as well.
 
 
Steve: The next scene takes us to the Draper residence the following day.
As Don gets up, he spots Bobby messing with a fountain pen on the white carpet. Ink is everywhere, while Emile obliviously sits there, letting him.
Throughout the scene, Emile and Marie have friction. They're taking little shots at each other and there's a real tension as they feud.
 
Megan reassures Don that this is par for the course with them and in no way will pose a threat to his award ceremony that evening.
 
Jenna: I love when Megan has to explain to Don that her father should be crying about his book to his wife, not his grad student.
“Oh, yeah, right,” Don says.
 
The other notable thing about this scene is that Megan, Sally, and Marie have just gotten home from shopping, and Sally asks permission to go to the dinner to see her father get his award.
Again, we see all these hints that Sally is growing up.
She's becoming one of the adults now, or trying to.
 
Steve: I love the style of the shots that Emile and Marie are taking at each other.
As the viewer, I'm trying to keep up with what they're alluding to.
Whereas we can tell the characters know the baggage and the scar tissue they're referring to.
And it just makes it feel that much more real.
 
That there's a brutality and a meanness to it, a pettiness,
but there's also a real emotional struggle that's present there and really tightly written.
 
Jenna: “I think every daughter should see her father as a success.” Yeah.
 
 
Next we get Abe and Peggy at her apartment, hosting Peggy's mother Katherine for dinner.
It's very domestic looking, but also false. I mean, we never see Peggy entertaining. She's not Trudy, she's not Betty.
 
She's hanging out with scraps of paper and books all over the place. She doesn't make hams in her spare time, but. But here she is. She's got on the apron.
 
I think Peggy partly expects her announcement to her mother to go well because it went well with Joan.
If Joan can approve, then maybe Katherine can, too. And Peggy can fully pretend she's happy with Abe and the state of their relationship.
 
But Joan has had a major life shift, and she might have shared Katherine's viewpoint in season one, but she's not the same now.
So you can see Katherine expects news of Peggy and Abe's engagement in this scene, but that's not what's coming.
 
Steve: Whatever hopes Peggy had, if it's to the extent what you just stated, then I think she's being quite naive given what we've already seen from Peggy's mother, how traditional she is.
 
She is not going to look at anything with an open mind, perceive it from the objective standard of what's best for her daughter.
And of course, this goes completely off the rails. So initially her mom is very polite and clearly not approving, but not being rude and not crossing any lines.
 
And then as Peggy perceives that and then pushes the issue and forces the question, then her mother turns on the flamethrower.
 
Jenna: Her tone might be polite and civil, but she's taking her cake back. [Laughing]
So I think there's no misreading her response as politeness at any stage. Although it gets a lot worse.
 
As always with Katherine, though, even though she's awful,
you can see the love she has for Peggy.
She says, you're selling yourself short, and she means, you deserve better. And for her that means a real marriage.
And it comes out raw and hateful.
 
But I think Katherine really does want Peggy to be happy, and she always has.
And when she says, you know, this boy will marry somebody else when he's ready,
this is stabbing at every bit of Peggy's self doubt.
When she just tears up and says, do you want me to be alone?
I mean, this is Peggy revealing she is settling.
 
She does think this is the best it can get for her.
And like Megan, she's trying to convince herself it's enough.
 
Steve: Well, and her mother does offer the helpful advice that if she's lonely, she can get a cat.
 
Jenna: And another and another, then you're done.
 
Steve: And this is the first incidence of the cat lady.
 
Jenna: I wonder too about Katherine and her loneliness and her life, and how she is prescribing these same traditional things to her own daughter.
And she would do anything for her daughter. As long as her daughter stays in line, right?
And she won't.
 
But I don't ever look at Katherine and say, oh, you're so happy. It worked out so well for you.
So it's interesting how determinedly she clings to her traditions.
It's clear Peggy wants a very full life.
 
Do you feel like Abe is offering that to her even without marriage? Do you think that Peggy is just a little bit too traditional, and that if she were more open to the possibilities with Abe, that maybe she could let herself be free, but she's still actually trapped kind of the way that Katherine is?
 
Steve: Trying not to look at it through my eyes, but I try and put myself in Peggy's head. I mean, she invokes her father and her mother fights her on that point and makes it clear that in her view,
in her mother's view, that her father would agree with the mother and be very much against this.
 
I don't know. I feel like we haven't seen enough of this relationship with Abe to know sort of how strong it is or how deep, you know, it's gone about as well as any relationship Peggy's had to this point.
 
It just feels like Peggy is kind of caught between different worlds, caught between conflicting views on her own side, her sense of modernity.
I don't know that there is a right answer for her here.
 
 
Jenna: Next, Roger comes over to Don's place and meets Marie and Emile Calvet. And there are already sparks flying as Marie ties Roger's bow tie for him.
 
Sally makes her entrance in a silver dress with her go-go boots.
And Emile has this line.
“Don, there is nothing you can do. One day your little girl will spread her legs and fly away.”
“Wings, Daddy,” Megan corrects.
 
And that's Emile's problem with Don. His little girl has left him and admires a new man. Emile isn't the only hero for her anymore.
There's a truth call-out as Marie agrees that inevitably this will happen, that your daughter will leave you.
 
Steve: And if there was any chance of Sally making it to the dinner with her make-up and go-go boots, it went out the window with Emile's misspeaking there about the spreading of wings and other appendages.
 
Jenna: I might be reading too much into this, but I thought it was interesting that Sally, representing the next generation in the Heinz pitch, has this silver dress on and kind of a futuristic thing, like, we're passing things on to the next generation.
 
And there are some things that we hope, you know, when we look at the relationship between Marie and Emile, and we hope not for Don and Megan, it's not just spaghetti that generations pass down, right?
 
Like, we hope that some of that dysfunction won't also be passed down to the future generation.
 
Steve: Well, and I wonder for a notorious philanderer like Don Draper, who is known in the greater New York City area for his sexual prowess and his number of partners,
a guy who's blown up his marriage with his trophy wife, I just have to think it's even harder for a Don Draper to look at his little girl as she starts to enter into womanhood.
It's got to make him consider his own experience with relationships and contemplate where his daughter's going to land.
 
 
Jenna: So Sally arrives at the dinner, and she's surprised the ballroom has no staircase.
 
There's a 1936 movie starring Shirley Temple called Captain January,
and there is a song and dance number in it called At the Codfish Ball. I'll link a video to that on our website for this episode.
The movie plot is not very connective to this Mad Men episode, but in the dance number, this young girl, Shirley Temple's character, is surrounded by adult men, including a dance partner.
 
And nothing untoward happens in the movie, but we can draw a direct comparison between Sally and Shirley, who are each surrounded by adults and performing in that world.
So Roger says Sally will be his date, and she can put the business cards he collects in her purse.
 
And honestly, he's so charming, you can't blame Sally for grinning, even when he's talking about napalm.
 
Steve: He is totally charming. And as you mentioned in the prior scene, there's instant sparks between him and Marie. And we can see Marie watching him closely as he humors Sally and just treats her as a little princess.
So we are really seeing Roger Sterling at his best here at the dinner. And Marie has definitely taken notice.
 
Jenna: This scene between Emile and Pete might be Pete's most admirable scene in the whole series. It's amazing.
Emile asks what Pete does, and the exchange between them is so perfect. I think this is actually one of my favorite things about this entire episode and why I look forward to it.
 
Well, what do you do?
You're a scholar and an intellectual, right?
From what I hear, you're a trailblazer.
I bet the world would be better off if they knew the kind of work you're doing.
That, Emile, is what I do every day.
 
Steve: And it's so perfect, because I think Emile brings a sort of intellectual arrogance, right? The author and professor talking to this account man at an ad firm from Madison Avenue, you know, that's the conceit Emile is starting this conversation with.
It's so hilarious how Pete is able to take advantage of Emile's insecurities and ego.
 
And the account man demonstrates that in spades, so that all he can do is laugh because he realizes Pete has completely caught him out and demonstrated exactly what Pete does, despite Emile's, you know, assumed superior intellect.
 
Jenna: I love that Emile laughs at himself. It's fantastic. He's been caught. He owns it. He doesn't apologize for it. And I think it makes us like him a lot more than if he were just affronted and sniffed or something.
I mean, he can't help it. And I think it's wonderful and it's honest.
Maybe Megan is a little more like her father than at first would appear.
 
Steve: We can also see that Marie is really excited by Roger's drive for success and this positive energy that he's bringing. As you know, he's working this room and sees this as a real opportunity for him to find a purpose at the front.
 
There's a real irony because we know what a whiny little low energy baby Roger has been. Marie is really seeing Roger Sterling at his best, and very much attracted to him.
But this is again, a sort of post acid trip revelation compared to where he was not too long ago.
I don't think Marie would have been so impressed with that earlier, feeling sorry for himself Roger Sterling.
 
Jenna: No. I think, though, at this particular moment in time, they're speaking each other's language really well.
Marie says, “It was my spirit when I was young to try everything, to get a taste and never be sorry for making mistakes."
And that? That is Roger's lust language right there. She's saying all the right things.
 
Steve: With a French accent, a very sexy French accent.
 
 
Jenna: So as the dinner is served, it's fish.
And we know from earlier Sally doesn't like fish,
Especially - it's plated with the head and the eyes and everything on it, so it's not great.
 
And Sally is there in the costume of an adult, so she tries the fish.
She doesn't spit it out, but it's not for her.
She went to a ball in the ballroom and there was no staircase. So, you know, it's starting to diminish from what her expectations were going to be.
 
Steve: Even if the dining options aren't to her preference, it feels like she's enjoying this exposure to the world of adults. What could possibly go wrong?
 
 
Jenna: Later at the dinner, as Don gets the award,
Roger orders Sally a Shirley Temple. And that's a nice nod to the episode title.
And Don offers to give the award to Sally.
 
And Emile and Marie are watching as Don is a good parent here.
He says Sally makes him happy. Not the award, that she's beautiful, and someday she can wear makeup, but not yet.
And it's such a good example of Don being attuned to her. He's setting appropriate limits. He's expressing approval of who she is.
 
And you can see Emile and Marie are approving of his parenting. And the best part is, Don isn't doing it to get their approval. He's just really being a good parent.
And that's lovely because we've missed that from him a lot through the series.
 
Steve: I'll also say that I think Marie's attraction to Roger is genuine.
She's probably not above doing things just to spite Emile,
but I don't get the vibe that any of this is a performance for his benefit or for his punishment.
 
Jenna: I'm sorry, but John Slattery in a ballroom is the man you want to meet in a ballroom.
He's so funny and he's so charming, and we know he's irresponsible and childish and everything, but yes, at his best, he is definitely the guy you want to spend time with.
 
 
Steve: Later in the dinner, Megan and Emile find themselves alone at the table. And Megan looks a little down, and Emile asks her about it. Is she serving her passion?
 
Megan seems to want to dodge the substance of this inquiry from Emile, but this is her father, and he knows her well.
You know, you haven't worked for this.
You've had this wealth served up to you and it's not good for your soul.
 
Jenna: This is another father attuned to his daughter.
He notices she looks sad.
"You have big beans success." And she says, "Don't make fun, Papa."
 
And the whole scene is written so well. It's very much like Peggy's scene with her mother.
Emile is calling Megan out on the truth about who she is and what she really wants, just like Katherine did with Peggy, except it's kinder.
 
So Emile and Katherine are carrying baggage and expectations for their children.
And it might be different from what Megan and Peggy actually dream about,
but neither parent lets them hide or pretend they're happy with something less. And that is love, even though it's difficult.
 
And Emile says, "Don't let your love for this man stop you from doing what you want to do."
And that is true about Megan. That's what's happening.
 
Steve: And I think Emile to some extent is speaking from experience.
I get the sense that he's pursued his passion and even at a low point in it where, you know, his book has been rejected and he still had the opportunity to pursue his passions.
And I don't think Emile would trade that for anything.
 
And I think that gives him a credibility for Megan in this moment where maybe the allure of success and what that can bring here could distract you from the fact that this isn't your passion.
 
And I think that's why it rocks her so profoundly, because he's not trying to drag her down for the sake of it or to join him in misery. He really is thinking about her best interests here.
 
Jenna: And I think even though we saw her face when she was talking to Peggy,
I think if Emile doesn't have this conversation with her at this dinner,
the future decision doesn't happen. This is a deciding moment for Megan, I think.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think he's pulled into the light something that's been gnawing at her subconscious and done it out of his love and commitment to her and her long term happiness.
And I agree with you. I think this is a real turning point for her.
She needs to make a decision because if she continues on this road, then she will have given up whatever it is that is her dream.
 
 
Jenna: On her way back from the ladies' room, Sally opens some double doors and finds Marie and Roger together.
Boy, children are discovering some ugly truths in this episode here.
Sally gets a whole look at charming Roger and elegant Marie being very different from who they seem to be to her.
 
And for something so shocking, Sally has nobody to talk about this with, like, there's - what is she going to do with this information?
She wanted so much to be grown up, and it turns out it's yucky fish dinner and infidelity.
It’s not nearly as much fun as she imagined.
 
I think also when we see how angry Roger's daughter is,
I'm not saying she has seen this exact situation, but over and over she's been with charming Roger, and inevitably been disappointed by him.
 
So I feel like this one evening clarifies Margaret's perspective a little bit, because certainly we can imagine she had all these opportunities to look up to her father and see him as a hero and then have him, in one way or another, disappoint her, shock her, let her down.
 
Steve: It's a rough scene from Sally's viewpoint, and the show succeeds in shocking us with these scenes and leveraging our own minds to achieve the shock that it doesn't actually explicitly show on the screen.
So maybe it's not something that Sally realizes consciously, but the truth of the matter is, for all the perks and great things of adulthood, there, there are costs and prices to pay.
 
 
Jenna: Meanwhile, Cynthia's father is telling Don nobody trusts him enough to work with him after the letter, which was basically the same thing Don said to Roger earlier.
But like Peggy and Joan, Don worked himself into the expectation that something good was coming,
enough so that now he's disappointed when it doesn't.
 
Steve: It also seems to parallel almost this welcome to the adult world. You can write a letter and bite the hand that fed you for so long, but there's a consequence and a price to be paid.

And this is the price. You're a loose cannon. Nobody's going to trust you.
Nobody can take that risk. Nobody can go to bat for you.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the table, Emile, Marie, Megan, Don, and Sally are all sitting dejected at the end of the night. Everybody has secrets and disappointments.
Roger doesn't come back to the table, but I kind of wish he would, because he seems to be having a really great evening.
 
Steve: If he was sitting at the table, I imagine he'd have a really big grin on his face, so it would be somewhat out of place with the other attendees. So I'm glad that he was probably at the bar getting another drink.
 
 
Jenna: This episode started with Sally and Glen on the phone, and it ends that way, too.
“People think you're my girlfriend,” Glen says, because Sally calls him (on the phone regularly).
I'm not, she says, and that line is mostly for us, to clarify that they both understand that's their relationship.
I'm so glad she's not his girlfriend.
 
How's the city? Glen asks.
“Dirty,” Sally answers.
I don't love that as a closing line when the writing in this episode, I feel has been so good and so efficient and clarifying.
It seems too much like a punchline to me to end this way.
 
But I do think it's necessary. I do think we need to understand Sally has been profoundly changed.  And she's having to process this by herself.
 
And so instead of having this magical grown-up evening where she gets to feel like she's not a little kid anymore, and people are taking her seriously, you know, there are all these layers that are peeling back that are - I don't mean that to be a euphemism [Laughing] - but she's having to look at things that she wasn't really ready for.
I do think the episode has to end with Sally. It's her episode, it really is, in a lot of ways.
 
Steve: I like the line and I think it really sums it up. It's a dirty business. It's a dirty world. She's gotten an exposure to it this evening and really everybody has across the episode.
 
So Peggy with what she thought would be a proposal for marriage. It's something lesser.
Don with hoping that his letter could maybe be a stepping stone to something bigger or good. And clearly it isn't.
Yeah, I like it. I think it really fits things and sums it up well in a way that Glen has no idea.
 
 
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Steve: That's it for this episode of All things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, Mad Men C to Z to vote for your favorite Sterling Lines, and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
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Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.