Mad Men C to Z S5E6 Far Away Places Podcast Transcript

This is the full, human-edited podcast transcript for our Mad Men C to Z discussion of season five, episode six, Far Away Places.
Visit our episode page for more details about this episode, and listen to the podcast here.

Mad Men C to Z S5E6 Far Away Places Podcast Transcript
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each re-watch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men, C to Z.
 
Jenna: This is Mad Men Season 5, Episode 6 Far Away Places. The episode was written by Semi Chellas and Matthew Weiner, and directed by Scott Hornbacher.
 
This episode follows three separate stories during the same time period; it's a Thursday in September.
It feels a little bit like the episode Seven Twenty Three that had the ending of three storylines, and it catches us up to how they got there.
In that case, it was Betty and Henry,
Peggy and Duck, and Don's robbing hitchhikers.
 
Here we get one connective point in all three stories, where Don asks Megan to leave with him, and then we get to see Peggy's story, Roger and Jane, and then Don and Megan's trip.
 
The title of this episode, Far Away Places, seems like a goal for each of the characters, because they all want to get someplace, but they can't quite escape themselves.
For Peggy, it's becoming Don,
for Jane, it's an LSD trip with Roger,
and for Don it's trying to recapture what he and Megan had on their trip to California.

Steve: The episode starts with Peggy getting ready for work. Abe's displaying his frustration that Peggy seems to prioritize her job and work over paying attention to him.
 
Jenna: Each of the three storylines features an argument between couples, and this one between Peggy and Abe opens with a truth call-out.
Abe complains Peggy's too focused on work.

He says there are always special circumstances, and she says that's not true,
but this is the same fight she had with her sister.
 
Peggy is always too busy for her personal and family life,
even though she does want that, too.
Abe's timing isn't great, and I have to say I'm generally a Peggy apologist, but I sympathize with Abe's central problem here.
Peggy's main relationship is with work, not him.
Did you feel like you had a strong alignment with Peggy or Abe in this conflict?
 
Steve: I don't feel like I align with either, but I just accept that this is the circumstance of this relationship.
As you said, Peggy prioritizes the job,
and I think she does have strong feelings for Abe and she genuinely likes him,
but she's always putting the job first.
And if you're Abe in this situation, it makes sense to me that you're feeling like you're always playing second fiddle.
 
Jenna: There are callbacks to the pilot in each of the three main storylines, and in Peggy's, it's being anxious about the Heinz client presentation here.
 
In this first scene in the pilot, we saw Don worried about not having anything to say to Lucky Strike, and he was obsessing to Midge about it in the morning,
just the way Peggy does to Abe.
 
Steve: And I think with Don not focusing so much on the job,
some of that burden and responsibility on the creative side is falling on Peggy.
 
So for someone who's already very focused on their work,
I think she's being thrust forward and having more responsibility put upon her,
which is probably something else that Abe's picking up on.
 
Jenna: I have a couple of tidbits from this scene.
Abe mentions a 1965 Cornell Wilde movie called The Naked Prey, in which a white man is given a chance to run for his life while being hunted in Africa.
 
It might be a reach, but I think maybe this movie is symbolic of Don and Megan's fight later when he's chasing her around the apartment.
And the movie Peggy ends up seeing later that day is Born Free,
in which a female lion is raised in captivity as a pet.
And that seems to be applying more and more to Megan, too.
 
The other piece I wanted to touch on was this episode drawing a really strong comparison between Peggy and Don, starting with this candy -
Don once told Bobby it tastes like violets.
He was saying his father liked it, and that it came in a purple and silver wrapper.
 
And it's such a great detail to have it come back here that Don would have given that to Peggy.
And now for her, it's good luck.
 
 
Steve: The next scene shifts to the office as Peggy arrives, and catches Michael in the midst of a personal phone call.
Peggy, having just fought with her partner, tries to commiserate with Michael.
He kind of shoots down her attempt, especially pointing out that the difference between the two conversations is that hers was private.
 
Jenna: And there's a weird off-kilter feeling as all of the creatives arrive that morning into the office with their own immediate experiences.
They don't have a very cohesive team vibe.
 
Peggy, Ginsberg, Stan, and Megan all have had some private experience that they connect to their work life, so they do have that in common.
 
But Stan makes a comment about his art.
His story is kind of funny. I sort of wanted to hear more about that.
But Megan talks about casting in this group of people she just saw.
Michael wants work privacy, presumably from his father, and, of course, Peggy's fight.
And they all care about work, but they're not synchronized as a team here.
 
Steve: And when Don and Megan show up and saying she can do the presentation and he won't be there for it, which, again, I think shows us Don checking out and Peggy, shouldering the burden.
 
And then we also see how Megan is not really the same as the other creatives because of her connection to Don.
We can clearly see that she just is never allowed to forget that she is Don's wife, and thus has a special status compared to the rest of them, like Stan, Michael, and Peggy.
 
Jenna: I think we like Megan more because you can see her guilt about leaving the team, and you can see Peggy doesn't like Don leaving her alone, and taking her team member.
But Peggy doesn't have the option to speak up and change it.
And it doesn't really feel like Megan has a lot of voice in it, either.
 
I thought it was interesting when Stan said something really encouraging to Peggy: “That's a vote of confidence,” when Don was leaving Peggy to do it.
So that was quite a turnaround for him from where he started with her.
 
There are two times in this episode when a character says something about Peggy that could also apply to Megan, and this is the first one,
because Ginsberg says “That's a disaster,” as Don and Megan are leaving.
 
It's supposed to apply to Don being out and leaving Peggy to deal with the presentation on her own.
But it also kind of does apply to Don basically kidnapping Megan, and their whole relationship. So it works on two levels.
 
Steve: And we know Stan isn't privy to the reasons why Don is always absenting himself. So I think this is a charitable read, both complimenting Peggy, but also I think Don has more important things to do, or is prioritizing the business in other ways, when we as viewers know that's just not the case.
His. His mind is elsewhere.
 
 
Jenna: Next up is Peggy's Heinz presentation.
I know it's meant to be a good presentation, but I can't help giggling when she says “It's the beans that brought them together on that cool night.”
Is it the beans? But okay, she does a good job.
 
But Raymond is not having it.
Connie wanted the moon.
Raymond wants college students.
This is a second elaborate pitch he's rejecting.
 
Steve: And Peggy goes full Don Draper in response. So just as we've previously seen Don Draper get quite hostile and in the face of clients, who,
in Don's opinion, weren't smart enough or visionary enough to see the brilliance of the ad campaign,
now Peggy is the one who's really at the end of her patience with the client who can't appreciate the creative genius that's on offer here.
 
We see Ken working the account side of it, trying to cool the temperature,
but the mask is really off of Peggy at this point.
 
Jenna: I get the sense that Raymond values Don Draper - he said, you know, does Don approve of this? or something - and I feel like Raymond isn't having this speech from Peggy,but I feel like he might take it from Don.
 
Steve: I get that vibe as well here.
It makes sense, because I think Raymond is portrayed as being of the older generation, and probably embracing the sexism of the older generation to a greater extent.
 
I mean, he directly compares Peggy to his own daughter. I doubt that he would do the same with Don Draper. Comparing him to, say, a son.
 
Again, I think we can see the frustration of Peggy, both from a pure creative standpoint with the client who's frustrating her, and then as well,
being a woman blazing a trail here on the creative side and then having to deal with that additional sexism from the client.
 
Jenna: We heard about Ken and Peggy's pact and how Ken is spending his evenings writing. So I thought it was kind of him to support Peggy in that meeting and then offering to take Raymond to a dinner and a show, because that is a completely donated writing evening just to appease Heinz.
 
We can see that Ken does take his job seriously, the way Roger was lecturing him about last time.
And on top of it, I think we also see that he does value his relationship with Peggy and wants her to succeed.
 
Steve: And I think we can see from Stan's comment that he views Peggy's move as, you know, potentially suicidal.
Peggy's crossed a line here with the client, and even in the eyes of her fellow creatives in the room.
 
Jenna: The meeting ends.
Peggy's irritated, but she's not giving up.
She's already looking for sketches of talking beans, which, again, I kind of want a little bit more of that.
 
But then Pete comes in and says she's off the business.
And we hit Peggy for not being kind during the radio spot with Annie.
But Pete doesn't exactly break this news gently.
 
Still, Peggy's been in this business for a while. She's been working on this a long time. She's disappointed it didn't go well, but she's not broken.
 
Steve: I think it's appropriate that Pete doesn't break it gently.
She's crossed a line, and behaved inappropriately with the client.
 
Maybe Don Draper is a prima donna known up and down Madison Avenue and can get away with it. But even when he was doing it, I can see the account people trying to rein him in and calm him down.
 
So for Peggy to go off the rails in this way, I guess I can really empathize with Pete's frustration here that their second best creative has now alienated a client to the extent that the client doesn't want to deal with her anymore.
 
Jenna: So it's a rough day for Peggy, and she goes into Don's office to pour a drink, and she downs it.
We don't see Don drink at all in this episode, But Peggy has Don's routine down completely.
She's drinking out of his stash, and then she heads to the movies, just like her mentor.
 
Steve: Peggy absents herself from the office, running into Bert on her way out.
And Bert has nothing to say when she says she's headed to the movies.
And she makes a friend in the theater.
 
Jenna: They smoke some weed. She gives him a hand job. You know, it's just a regular movie outing, I guess.
This is so Don Draper of her.
 
Steve: At least she wasn't talking in the theater.
 
Jenna: She doesn't have what she wants at home or at work.
So she goes out and she finds this. It's a little proof to herself that she has some kind of control.
And it's obvious it doesn't mean anything personal to her, but obviously it's disregarding Abe.
And it feels like a very lonely thing to do.
Kind of like Betty eating her feelings.
 
Steve: Well, and I think potentially a little reckless, right?
You could get in trouble for public indecency.
It's very Don Draper-like, I think, if we draw that parallel to the reckless behavior.
 
 
Jenna: There are a lot of scenes with mirrors and reflections in this episode. We cut to a scene of Peggy in a bathroom washing her hands.
We often see Don catching a glimpse of himself in a mirror when he's ashamed or disappointed in himself.
He can't quite run away from who he is and what he's done.
So I feel like this mirror scene in the bathroom is just following up with that Don behavior.
 
 
Steve: And as she goes into the office, she bumps into Michael and his father.
And we can see Michael's discomfort and shyness about his father interacting with his supervisor.
And, of course, Michael's father is eager to engage with Peggy.
 
Jenna: Yes. I wasn't sure if Ginsberg is afraid his father will embarrass him, or if he's craving independence from a father who's too much into his business,
but Ginsberg's father is obviously very proud of him, and wants to be included in his life.
 
And Peggy has that same issue with her mother. So she seems amused by this, like she's not alone in this.
But Ginsberg is not wanting to open up and connect with her and commiserate with her about it.
 
 
Steve: And Peggy goes back to Don's office, and lies down on his sofa, and then falls asleep, waking up later when it's dark. And Dawn comes in to give her a call from Don Draper.
 
Jenna: Yes, this shot is really remarkable for a couple reasons.
 
All three of our main stories this episode have an overhead shot.
Peggy is lying down on Don's couch in the scene.
 
And it's also a callback to the pilot here. As day transitions tonight, Peggy met Don,
waking him up on his couch as his secretary.
And now Dawn, Don's latest secretary, is waking Peggy up.
 
And as she takes the call from Don,
she's honest about the presentation. She takes responsibility for it.
Don doesn't listen or care about work, which for most of the series, is really unusual for him.
 
Steve: Yes, he's got something going on.
He's asking if anyone has called her, and it's not at all clear what the deal is, but Don Draper is upset and distracted.
 
 
Jenna: Later that night, Peggy and Ginsberg are in the office typing.
Everything about this scene shifts my worldview and reminds me, you just don't know what people are going through.
 
So we know Don Draper had a difficult upbringing, and in his way, Pete did, too.
But here's Michael Ginsberg revealing he was born in a concentration camp,
and surviving that reality is just - I mean, it's hard to fathom.
 
And we know Don can't escape his past, and it informs his present.
But he's not the only one with hardships, and sometimes he acts like he's the only one with any tragedy.
And that's especially ironic when he creates tragedies for other people.
 
Steve: Ginsberg is such a funny duck, the way he relays several points, that he's actually from Mars, they're not here as part of a scheme to take over. They're just displaced.
 
We find out he was born in a concentration camp,
that his birth mother is no longer alive, adopted out of a Swedish orphanage.
It's hard to filter out the hyperbole from the truths, but it's clear that Michael is somebody who has a lot of angst in his life, and has probably had it his entire life.
 
In this small little scene with little bit of dialogue, we can really see someone who's struggling to find his place in the world.
And even Peggy's question, she asks if there are others like him.
And Ginsberg's answer is, so sad and lonely, he says he doesn't know. He hasn't been able to find any.
Which just, I think, emphasizes this perception of his loneliness.
And in his comments about his father, who I've just assumed is his birth father,
this conversation raises questions.
 
Is he really his birth father, or was he his adopted father out of the orphanage, or is there some other relation here?
It's not clear. And it's so striking in contrast to the scenes we've seen with the father figure, because clearly this father cares deeply for Michael, is proud of him, and loves him.
And yet we see Michael very much alone here on an island in this moment. I think it kind of catches Peggy off guard a bit just how much he reveals about his inner angst.
 
Jenna: The Martian story to avoid the reality, is so sad.
And Ginsberg reveals it in a reflection in the window.
So he's two people at the same time, like Don,
this little adopted boy, and the Martian he became to protect himself.
 
So if you were just looking at Ginsberg and thinking, okay, this is another wacky creative guy in the office, it just blew up a whole other dimension of him.
 
Steve: Well, and as well, I think we know Don Draper is a fabrication, a persona that Dick Whitman has had success with over a much longer period of time.
 
So I think we're catching the Michael Ginsberg character in the very beginnings of creating this professional identity, where he's involved as a creative in an ad agency.
 
These origins and uncertainty in his life is much closer and more central to his perception of himself,
perhaps in a way that with Don Draper, we know he's got angst and struggles and fights with his identity and his history,
but he's also got a nice layer of something else to insulate and shelter him at times from going back in time to that past.
 
With Ginsberg, it feels much more raw and immediate to me.
 
Jenna: Yes. And I think the show continues to remind us that it's very difficult to hold two different identities. We've seen that with Lane trying on different personalities,
and we see it with Peggy a lot, too.
 
So it's Don Draper who's able to exist with that duality,
even though we see that it isn't exactly a healthy mindset that he's carrying around, but it is a unique ability to be able to live in that space.
 
As Peggy goes home and calls Abe. She doesn't even have her coat off yet.
And this is a moment where I think -
you know, she's been Don Draper all day.
But here she reaches out to somebody, she needs somebody,
and she invites him over.
She wants to be with him.
And when she says, I always need you,
do you think she really feels that way, or is this just a thing in the moment?
 
Steve: I guess my take was that she was very moved by the pain and struggle that is Michael Ginsberg. I got the sense that she was seeking shelter and consolation in this relationship and somebody who's quite devoted to her.
 
I mean, Abe's complaint at the beginning of the episode is that, you know, she's not focused enough on the relationship, and he wants more of her attention and time.
So I felt it was a move for comfort on Peggy's part.
 
And the other thing, I think just to point out here, much about the Holocaust is very much back in history now.
There are a few survivors, and those survivors are extremely old at this point.
It's quite distant and much more historic going into the show at the time.
 
This is set where you've got survivors of working age trying to get on with their life.
These people whose entire world was destroyed, and they were displaced and millions were murdered.
It's hard to fathom people coping and dealing with that on top of just the normal day to day. But there were a lot of people in that circumstance.
 
And just the idea that Ginsberg, even - even if he can't directly remember it because he was too young, his life, circumstance, and his origins are all wrapped up in this monstrous crime.
 
I can see how for someone like Peggy to have it humanized and personalized would put her in a pensive, thoughtful mode, to maybe embrace and be grateful for what she has and her struggles.
Because as great as they are, and we've talked a lot about them in comparison to survivors of the Holocaust,
you start to realize how fortunate Peggy Olson really is.
 
 
 
Jenna: For the next third of the episode, we get Roger's story. And the pacing on this show is so good that I haven't really noticed how rare it is to just follow one character without flipping between different people, until we let go of Peggy and focus on Roger.
 
He goes to Don. He says he wants a guys trip to Plattsburgh for Howard Johnson's, but Don wants to go with Megan instead.
And Roger has this funny but very oddly specific wingman request.
He says,
“Alone, I'm an escapee from an expensive mental institution, but with you, we're a couple of rich, handsome perverts.”
Who could say no to that?
 
Steve: Don Draper has never really been about that, right. Like in all the opportunities, that's just not his bag, and hasn't been, even though it's readily available to him at the moment he wishes to indulge.
 
So I guess more pathetic Roger,
Roger, you just married this young wife and left your family behind, it wasn't that long ago.
And now you're just seeking another escape from your day to day life and an escape that harkens back to a youth that's now gone for you.
It's not an auspicious beginning to Roger's story in this episode.
 
Jenna: And we'll find out that he's explicitly seeking to avoid spending the evening with Jane and her snooty friends, as he calls them.
He mentions that he says “Frank Lloyd Rice, because they hate it.”
And I would hate that too.
Call things by their correct names, I mean, please.
 
Frank Lloyd Wright was an architect whose most notable works included Falling Water in Pennsylvania and the Guggenheim Museum in New York, which opened in 1959.
His trademark was building design that reflected natural elements.
 
Steve: I just got a sense that it was him messing with Jane's friends and their perception of him and playing the bumpkin in the ignoramus.
Even though we know darn well that Roger Sterling doesn't suffer for a lack of intelligence.
 
Jenna: That's the first time I would ever picture Roger feeling like the odd man out in terms of prestige. So that was sort of a funny take.
 
When we get to that scene, you can understand why he is that way and why he pokes them.
And in the commentary Matthew Weiner mentions, this is biographical from himself, that his wife is an architect, and apparently this was something he enjoyed doing to her friends.
 
Steve: And we know Roger, you know, just like Pete Campbell was raised posh. I don't know, maybe a Dick Whitman could make the mistake or be uninformed.
 
 
Jenna: Next we see Roger and Jane in the elevator going out for the evening.
And this costuming and hair for Jane is absolutely as memorable as Betty's in Italy. It's amazing.
Roger is happy to compliment Jane's looks, but not to actually have to listen to her.
 
So she's planning an evening of taking LSD together.
He hasn't paid any attention to anything.
 
Steve: And I think we see the tragedy of their relationship here, right. You know, this is obviously important to her and he doesn't give it the time of day.
 
Once, say, the physical attraction goes,
you know, where is this relationship?
And it just seems profoundly broken because she's miserable and not feeling seen and given due attention.
And we can see that he's not happy in her company and would rather be in Plattsburgh, New York, of all places, at the Howard Johnson’s, you know, cavorting with Don Draper.
 
Jenna: So I have a mental image of the 60s and 70s with this LSD as something like a rave with kaleidoscope colors, and maybe black light or something that hippies did.
But at this time period, there was also a wealthy socialite group who embraced it.
So that's what we're getting to see here with this hosting couple.
 
They're played by actor Tony Pasqualini and Bess Armstrong, who is Jane's therapist.
I'm of an age when I remember HBO playing a particular set of movies over and over.
So there wasThe Legend of Billie Jean, Better Off Dead, and Heathers.
And if you ever saw Jaws 3D, you can picture Bess Armstrong's character talking about Shelby Overman and saying, “the mother is inside the park.”
So I was amused about that crossover.
She was also in My So-Called Life, Bosch, and a whole bunch of other stuff.
 
Steve: It's interesting that even though Roger isn't engaged and leaning into trying to give Jane what she wants, he's not against trying LSD. He's rather open to it.
 
And I guess this is another trait of Roger Sterling. He's not stuffy, he's not close minded. He's willing to try things and have adventure and have fun.
 
So I guess at least Jane is getting her way.
Even though Roger's motivation for it probably isn't, it isn't coming from the place where she would be pleased.
 
Jenna: There's a lot of talk about the truth in this scene. Jane claims that the truth is good because it's always real,
even though she and Roger seem to have avoided truth for most of their relationship.
 
And Jane's therapist has this line that she sees patients who spend years searching for the truth and then they go and make the same mistake,
which of course applies to Roger and Don.
 
And I hope it isn't the point of the show to say you can never recover from the mistakes you make, and that knowing what's true won't save you from yourself, because that would be really depressing.
 
Steve: I don't think that is. But I think one point the show is making on this is that truth won't necessarily save you. That truth is not sufficient to save you.
 
So maybe it's the foundation of understanding and making a better choice going forward or a different choice.
But it's not sufficient.
 
Roger, in his quieter moments, I think he has few illusions about who and what he is. And I think we see in his comments about when he's depressed or down a bit, you know, his critiques of himself are pretty on point.
 
I get the same sense for a Don Draper and even Betty Draper, for that matter.
I think they know who they are and their inability to make a different choice despite having that truth is part of the tragedy of their characters.
 
Whereas maybe in fiction, where we're more commonly seen characters who, once they have the truth, then that's the key to unlock the different choice or the change, and they cease being an addict, or become loyal to their partner, or whatever it is.
 
Mad Men doesn't give us that nice little escape. It traps us in that gritty reality of just because you know what's going on doesn't mean you're going to be able to stop it, change it, or better it.
 
Jenna: Yeah, still pretty dark.
 
I think I'd add that it's not just that knowing the truth won't necessarily save you,
it's also that deception brings misery to those around you.
And we definitely see that with Roger and with Don.
 
I also, I think overall, the main message is Don Draper is a cautionary tale, right.
The trappings of success or fooling yourself are never going to bring you happiness.
But it's funny how this scene where, I mean, there's the mirage of Don, it doesn't even have Don, but it brings all those things to the forefront.
 
It makes me a little bit sad as they move into the living room and they're getting ready to try the LSD and the other couple is so into each other, and there's this moment where Jane pulls Roger's arm around her,
copying them to feel or pretend like he loves her and that he wants to be there.
And that made me feel really sad, even though Jane isn't very likable.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think Jane's intention is this is a trip they take together towards truth.
And I think the tragedy is for Roger, it's, well, I'm stuck here. I might as well take an adventure with some LSD.
And it's not a joint trip from his perspective. It's a solo trip,
like you say.
That just puts them at odds in this scene and I think stands in for the way they're disconnected and at odds in their marriage.
 
Jenna: So what did you think about this whole LSD sequence? Because I know there are those in the fandom who really love it, and I thought it was visually interesting.
And the effects were kind of interesting,
but I'm sort of impatient with the characters for not understanding themselves already.
Like if you need Don Draper to show up in your trip and tell you to go to your wife, I mean, you have bigger problems, right?
 
Steve: Yeah. And I guess what struck me about the scene is I think they play it rather subtly. You know, they don't really go with the full psychedelic freakout.
 
And the one that jumps to mind is from the 21 Jump Street film.
When they start to trip, I think it's on mushrooms, and they're talking to Rob Riggle and these eyebrows start crawling around his face and all the rest of it, and it's really, really hilarious.
 
But in this one, it's much more subtle. The noise as Roger removes the cap to the bottle of booze and the accordion extension and then contraction of the cigarette when he lights it . . .
My impression of it was it's undermining this idea that somehow the LSD is going to bring you to truth, that there is no magic pill that will bring it to you.
 
So, yeah, you're going to have an unusual trip, and you're going to have some weird moments, like where Roger's watching himself and Jane dance.
But I don't see any great source of truth or font of knowledge that's being driven by this chemical.
 
I think all that's really happening is they're left with the truth they both already know.
And it's maybe putting them into a spot where they're willing to air it,
because as you just said a few minutes ago,
they're not doing that at present.
 
They're kind of avoiding each other and dodging that truth because it's uncomfortable and it's going to mean some serious consequences for their relationship.
So then now, I guess I've seen the LSD as just an excuse to broach a subject that they, they could have, they could have addressed being stone cold sober.
 
Jenna: I thought these details and symbols were so thoughtful and well chosen, because Roger, the navy guy, opens a bottle of Russian vodka and he hears a Russian chorus singing the Song of the Volga Boatman popping out.
 
And the cigarette, the accordion.
I mean, I have to think that's a reference to Joan.
 
So you're bringing yourself to this experience as much as you might be taking LSD to get away from yourself,
this idea that these things that you carry with you are part of who you are.
 
There's also this magazine ad. It features actor Ted Knight. He was in Caddyshack, and he played Ted Baxter on the Mary Tyler Moore Show.
This is another reference to truth and reflections, because Roger looks in the mirror and he sees the black and gray hair on two halves of his head.
So, like Ginsberg and Don, he's two people at once.
 
He's the young, successful man he wants to project,
and he's the aging, irresponsible man he's becoming, or become, or always was, maybe.
 
Steve: And we know Roger has got one foot stuck in the past.
I don't feel like the drug has revealed anything he doesn't already know or that Jane doesn't already know.
 
Jenna: And for this segment, we get another reference to the pilot episode of Mad Men, when Don tells Roger in the mirror, everything's okay.
You are okay.
And, of course, that was the pitch he came up with for Lucky Strike.
 
 
Back at their home, Roger and Jane are in a bathtub, and Roger hallucinates the 1919 World Series game between the Chicago White Sox and the Cincinnati Reds,
which several Sox players agree to lose in exchange for a payout.
 
Eliot Asinof's 1963 book, Eight Men Out, tells this story, and there's a 1988 film about it starring John Cusack, Christopher Lloyd, and Charlie Sheen.
I can't see it, Jane says about the game.
And she's disappointed, even while he's so delighted and manic with this delusion. And they just don't fit together.
 
 
So the next scene brings us their overhead shot, lying on their backs,
and Roger here says, I can see you, but he's not looking at her.
So he tells her, “You're beautiful.”
That's all you ever say, she says.
 
Steve: And we know Roger's dissatisfaction with the relationship.
But I think here Jane confesses her own dissatisfaction, you know, she admits to thinking about having an affair, and she also accuses Roger of not falling in love with her and that, in fact, he doesn't even like her.
 
Jenna: We don't get to see Jane on her own, so we don't know if it's only Roger's neglect that makes her unhappy.
I think, like Joan, she wanted a certain kind of man, and she was pretty and determined enough to get him.
But it didn't work out.
 
And in Joan's case, I feel like she's not looking for a different man. She's looking to herself and being more authentic.
 
And in Jane's case, we don't know her well enough, so I'm not sure what lessons she's drawing from being with Roger.
It seems a little more like she thinks she chose the wrong guy than that her method doesn't really optimize happiness.
 
And this exchange between them is so sad. She says, I knew we were going somewhere, and I didn't want it to be here.
But it's already been over for a while in all but name, they've already been here.
“You don't like me.”
“I did,” he says.
 
Did he ever? Did he ever even know her? I don't think she knew him either.
The whole thing was such a mess. It would have been a miracle if it had led to happiness for either one of them.
 
Steve: Yeah, agreed. And I think everybody called that at the time they started, you know, in the office and the sort of, I guess, best case neutrality, you know, more likely mostly negativity from everyone else, you know, sort of led by Don Draper, thinking back to Roger and what he knew about Jane.
 
He was in love with the idea of her, and what she represented for him.
Having attained that it's no longer good enough, and the fantasy is over, and he's basically left where he was with someone that wasn't a particularly good match.
 
I liked that there's not any hostility here between the two of them. It's resignation, sadness, regret, and it's quite dignified and quite touching, I think, because we can see two people sharing that truth between them that I guess they've been avoiding.
 
 
Jenna: The next morning, Roger is more connected to Jane than he's been in a long time.
He's got a plan for their separation. He's glad they're being kind with each other, but she doesn't remember.
Jane is super gorgeous in this scene, too.
 
And there's another truth call-out when Roger says,
“We were able to be there together in the truth, like you wanted.”
 
And he's thrilled and she's miserable.
Mad Men doesn't let us have this happy ending to their ending, because Roger was saying, you know, I'm so glad there isn't going to be screaming and lawyers.
But then Jane is upset, and we know there will be screaming and there will be lawyers.
There's not an easy exit, even if both of them want this.
 
Steve: And I think if we think what's next? Or question what's next for each of them,
neither of them really has an answer.
 
So Roger, having gone down this path, I guess I would think he wouldn't want to go down it again, because it's likely to fail in the same way.
 
And I interpret Jane's reluctance to face the truth and move on as being just simply. She doesn't know where her future lies, and then, you know, she has to start everything all over again.
 
But it's clear to me that she doesn't have a plan B lined up at this point. And I think she's looking backwards, trying to cling to something.
 
 
Jenna: Now we come to Don and Megan's story for the third part of the episode, and their trip to Howard Johnson's.
Don is trying to recapture their California vacation with this trip.
He says, “Remember California? Two hotel rooms.”
 
And he's really into her and excited to be with Megan,
which is sweet, except he completely ignores her professional life by ripping her away from the presentation.
 
And I think Megan is a lot more likable because she isn't like Jane, who just unabashedly reached for her husband privilege in the office.
Megan does seem to want to pay her dues and be supportive in the meeting,
even if it's just a low level contribution, right?
Even if she's just going to go into the meeting and sit there.
 
Steve: In this scene, if we compare it to the earlier one with Peggy and Abe, it's almost like Megan is the Peggy. She's got responsibilities, she's focused on her job. She doesn't want to abandon her teammates.
 
Don is the Abe saying, hey, you know, I want to spend time and have all the focus be on you and me and our relationship.
 
I think the corrosive part here is how oblivious Don is to Megan's preference.
So in the Peggy and Abe scene, it's friction. There's an argument between the two of them because of this different perception and them speaking and addressing it directly.
 
Here there's no argument because Don can't see or hear any objections from Megan and he's trying to sweep her away.
And we can tell she's clearly not happy with that. It's not that she's unhappy to go off with him, but if she has any illusions about being a legitimate creative and building a career, this is all undermining that.
 
Jenna: That's a good point. I hadn't made that comparison, but that makes sense to me.
On the drive, Don continues to override Megan in her feelings.
He took her out of the presentation at the last minute.
And then she mentions, oh, we're going to be close to my parents.
And he just ignores that suggestion. He says, oh, they're going to come visit soon anyway, so like, no, we're not going to make an extra stop to go do that.
 
And I feel like Megan is trying to get along. She smiles and she says, okay,
but it's exhausting to try to voice your needs and not be heard.
 
So for Don I think this is him being the hero by showing Megan a good time, and he has no clue that she's building frustration here.
 
 
Steve: As they arrive at the Howard Johnson’s, they're greeted by Dale Vanderwart, the manager, who's going to show them around.
 
Jenna: And you can see Megan putting her professional face on. She's trying really hard to make the best of it.
So he says, do you like clams? And she says, I like everything.
So here she is. She's reset, she's ready to be positive.
 
And the set design of this Howard Johnson's is really great.
Megan's coral outfit pops against the teal booth,
and it's also a bit reminiscent of Don and Megan and the kids when they were in California and the milkshake spill happened.
 
Don seems really giddy and happy. He's brought her something from the gift shop,
and he cannot wait for her to try orange sherbet, even if Megan prefers pie.
 
Steve: And again, he's not going to listen to her when when she wants pie. He's going to force this issue.
And of course, it goes poorly.
She tries it, shakes her head and says that it's not for her.
 
Jenna: I've been Don and Megan before in this argument, in terms of having expectations about what something will be like, and the other person isn't into it the same way.
 
I believe Megan doesn't like orange sherbet, but honestly, at this point,
if she had just said she didn't like it, to stake her claim in the ground and say,
I want to order dessert, because she's just had enough of him controlling her, I think that would be completely reasonable. She's right to be over it.
 
Steve: Don's lack of attention and hearing her comes home to roost here because he's irritated by her reaction.
And then she has this facetious moment where she fakes enjoying it and starts shoveling it into her mouth, which just further irritates and enrages Don.
 
And we can see, I think he's honestly puzzled as to why is she irritated and frustrated and why is she behaving this way. I think it really comes out of left field for him when she starts to explain her frustrations.
 
Jenna: Yes, to Don, this is out of the blue because she's being bratty about some ice cream, but for her, she's been caged and she wants out.
 
This is an explosion waiting to happen because Megan has made the best of most of his issues. She goes along to get along, and Don pointed that out to Roger that morning when he goes, “Megan gets along with everybody.”
 
But he's so micromanaging about her life, and she has no separation.
She goes to work and he's there, in charge, and she goes home and he's there.
She has nothing of her own.
And I think if he stepped back for a second,
he would see it, but he doesn't.
 
Steve: And of course, as the argument escalates, Don brings up her mother and Megan calling her and talking to her in French. And I think the insinuation there is that she's complaining about him.
So this is a gripe that Don is been harboring. And now it's being aired,
and Megan decides to fire back at him.
 
Jenna: It's not cool that Megan weaponizes what she knows about Don's family with her comment about calling his mother.
But I also think she's poking him with a chopstick and he whacks back with a sledgehammer when he leaves her there.
She doesn't have a cell phone. She doesn't have luggage.
I don't know how much money she has on her.
 
But Abe accused Peggy of always wanting to press the button on the whole thing.
That's what Don does when he walks away from Megan.
To me, it's a huge escalation and break in trust.
So he wants her to depend solely on him,
and then he abandons her in Plattsburgh. I mean, this would be a hard thing to forgive, and you'd never forget it.
 
Steve: Well, and I think Megan wants to continue the argument here, the fight. So I don't think she realizes how deeply she cuts him with, you know, the comment about, you know, why doesn't he call his mother?
 
And then as he's going to leave, she's telling him, you know, hey, don't walk away from me. I'm not going to get in the car with you, you know, so you can control now that we're leaving.
But Don seems set on that course of action.
It's a pretty serious fight in this moment.
 
I think as soon as he's pulled away,
probably Megan is regretting that it's got so heated.
And he can't go very far down the road before he realizes that this has gotten way too heated and he can't leave her abandoned there.
 
Jenna: Well, they don't show us exactly how much time it's been since Don drove away.
But by the time he heads back, there are new vehicles in the parking lot. So he didn't just drive away in a huff and go around the block and come back.
The total drive is about five hours long. It's still daylight.
So he does make it.
 
But if I were her at that point, I would not be regretting that it got so heated.
You can see she's sorry right after the comment comes out of her mouth about his mother.
But it's also really strange, because Don is hurt about his childhood and about not being loved and those things.
But his response then is to abandon her, which is what his hurt is about, I think.
 
And I think she made a mistake. But if we're throwing blame, I mean, I just like we. This is on him.
This is all, to me, on him.
 
Steve: Well, and as well, it kind of puts her into a tough situation. He's left her there at the Howard Johnson's.
Is she going to sit there and wait and be, you know, a slave to again to his control and he'll come back when he - if he chooses to come back, and she'll dutifully wait.
Or is she going to take a more independent path and in a world where he's driven away, she's now going to make her own way and not wait around for him to come to his senses? And, you know, obviously from watching the episode, we know she ends up in the latter decision.
 
Jenna: I want to back up just a little bit because I want to talk about the waitress in the Howard Johnson’s, played by Lisa K. Wyatt.
And you might recognize her as Kevin's girlfriend on The Office. And she's been in a bunch of other shows, including Uncorked, Donnie Darko, and she is a jail guard in Legally Blonde.
 
There's another bit in this fight that happens before the dessert when Don starts working and Megan calls him out and says, you know, it's okay for you to want to work, but not for me.
 
And she has this line that she's just throwing away. She says it's not a destination, it's on the way to someplace. And there's a truth call-out because he agrees, “that's true.”
And to me, that line really highlights the disagreement Megan has with Don.
 
For Don being happily married to her, that is the destination. It's the Disneyland fantasy place he's trying to live in.
But Megan is taking this journey with him, and she doesn't want to be static perfection in a bubble for his amusement. Shocker. They're on the way to someplace, and how they get there matters in terms of where they're going.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think that's a good point.
And I think that's at the heart of their different perceptions of this relationship and this growing problem that I think we're starting to see open up between the two of them.
 
Don is at destination. Would like just to keep it this way.
Megan is independent. She has aspirations,
dreams, and to be fulfilled, she needs to be able to pursue those things.
 
And I just don't get the sense that Don perceives them.
And even if he did perceive them,
he doesn't seem to be making room for them within the relationship.
 
Jenna: Yeah, that's a great way to put that.
It seems really illogical to me for Don to wait around so long at the Howard Johnson's and assume Megan is going to go back there to find him.
I wouldn't.
If he left me, I wouldn't. I wouldn't go back.
 
But he doesn't really seem to think about what she needs or how she feels.
So he's just stuck there in the place he hoped was going to be this happy getaway for them.
But it doesn't seem to make the most sense that he stays there as opposed to trying to find her.
 
Steve: I don't think he really has an alternative because what's his alternative? She probably won't come back. So I'll just go back to the city. She can make her own way.
If she were to come back and he had truly gone back to the city,
then really he's - he's back to the worst case scenario of I left you in Plattsburgh and went home without you.
So he can't risk doing that.
 
So I think in many ways, his little temper tantrum drive away has boxed him in now and forced him to now wait and be stuck at the Howard Johnson's with,
yeah, he's got every means of leaving, but he can't,
on the off chance, however low the probability that she circles back there.
 
And like you said,
it doesn't make sense that she would circle back there, but he simply cannot risk that scenario.
So it's ironic that he's the one who ends up getting stuck in upstate New York,
even though, as Megan will later reveal to us, she has a very long bus ride back to the city.
And then even just getting a cab from the bus station to their apartment is a hassle in the wee hours of the morning.
 
Jenna: So later we see Don calling Peggy to see if Megan went to the office or called there again. That's what he would do.
And then he calls Megan's mother.
 
And earlier they mentioned they were about an hour and a half from where her parents live. So at least that seems like a more reasonable guess about where Megan might have gone.
And there's a very gorgeous shot of Don at night. He's smoking outside in front of the bright orange roof.
And it's really beautiful, even though it's sad.
 
Steve: And we can start to see, as he's on the phone with Megan's mother,
who hasn't heard from Megan, of course, he's starting to worry.
 
He's starting to spin more problematic scenarios than just, oh, Megan is upset and is making her own way.
Now he realizes the implications of what he did, the potential risks, and he's starting to spin through these worst case scenarios in, in his mind about who she may have gone off with or what she may have encountered, et cetera.
 
And it really seems like a form of poetic justice that now he is the one worrying and fretting and contemplating the loss of this person that means so much to him,
in contrast to when he walked out in a huff and basically didn't give any attention to,
you know, what are you doing to her by leaving her here as you drive away in the car because you happen to hold the car keys.
 
Jenna: And that moment where he picks up her sunglasses in the parking lot and he has that panic starting to creep across his face . . .
 
Steve: And any parent knows this feeling of when they start to get worried about where a kid is.
And, you know, I think many couples have had moments of worry and concern when somebody hasn't shown up or they are unable to be located, you know, particularly in the days before cell phones where, you know, you hit Find My and you can see exactly where the person is.
 
 
Jenna: So Don drives home and he has a flashback of driving home from the Disneyland vacation with Megan and the kids.
If you look in the backseat, it's the wrong Bobby, because the flashback was filmed in season four and season five gives us a different actor.
 
But Don's remembering this perfect time in their relationship when he was whistling a Beatles tune because he couldn't keep his happiness inside.
And now he's in the same car alone.
And I feel good for him that he cares and that he's upset, because it seems like a huge improvement from his I don't feel a thing mindset.
 
But it does also feel desperate, because Don has transferred all his dependency from work and drinking to Megan.
Megan will make him happy, so that's all he needs.
 
Steve: And again, the irony is in a world where he's transferred all that focus and attention to her, he still storms out on her at the Howard Johnsons in a fit of anger and leaves her there alone.
 
So it really is a moment of failure. And I think Don Draper realizes that he's really screwed up in this moment.
And if he could do it again,
as he's driving home alone and worried about where Megan's got to,
I think he knows now he wouldn't do that again. He can't do that.
 
 
Jenna: So Don arrives back at the apartment, and he finds the chain on the door, and he's so relieved.
So he yells to Megan, and she won't open it.
He kicks in the door, and he says, I said I was sorry.
He did not say he was sorry. He never once said he was sorry. This is a problem.
 
We talked about Mystery Date having a horror theme, and the idea of the real horror being you or the monster you live with for Joan and Greg.
And when Don is chasing Megan around the apartment and grabbing for her, she's legitimately afraid of him.
 
And I don't think we watch and think he's going to physically harm her, because that's not what he's been about.
But it's not a loving reunion. This is him recapturing her and seizing control of her, and that is scary.
 
Steve: The physicality of the chase, and also I think the physicality of him kicking open the door is what starts this focus on physicality.
I think this notion that you can physically capture her. Yeah, perhaps you can,
but it's not getting you what you want. It's not what she wants.
And it's an illusion of control and a reestablishment of control.
 
And I think as soon as, you know, they sort of fall to the floor together.
And I think he's starting to realize in that moment that this doesn't solve it. You know, the fact that he can physically grab her, that you've still got to resolve what happened in this fight and what it was about.
 
And Megan's weeping as she falls to the floor is so touching and painful to see.
And you can see that Don Draper is at a loss for how to repair this or how to heal this.
So, you know, for all his might,
it's useless in resolving how he's hurt his partner.
 
Jenna: This is the third overhead shot with characters lying on their backs in this episode.
And just like the orange sherbet wasn't the milkshake moment here,
this carpet moment isn't the physical reconciliation we saw after Zou Bisou in the past, either.
And Megan asks Don the same question Betty once asked him.
She says, “How could you do this to me? I would never do that to you.”
 
And Don's answer is so lame.
He says,
“It was a fight, it's over.”
This was not a normal fight. It is not what people do. And it's not over.
He just thinks he's a –
 
Steve: But he also. He also says, I don't know.
So I think he does confess lack of an answer and tries to then move off it to like, as you pointed out, it was a fight, it's over. Trying to shut it down.
But he does start with the honesty of he doesn't know how he could do this to her.
 
Jenna: I don't think - I don't know that this is honesty. I think it's evasion.
And I think he's not trying to get to a real place to resolve it.
He just wants it to be ended.
He wants to try to get back to what, a milkshake moment?
And he isn't there. And he messed it up. And he doesn't say he's sorry. I mean, it's just -
He doesn't realize how much worse he's making it, when he doesn't own up his own contribution to the problem.
 
Megan stands up and straightens herself,
and Don is on his knees. He's hugging her. His eyes are closed.
His face is near her belly.
It's definitely giving mother abandonment issues.
 
But how monstrous is it for him to play the victim here? He abandoned her.
It wasn't that she left him at Howard Johnson's.
I mean, he makes up some story in his head about how, I thought I lost you,
and his reality is the one that matters.
 
Steve: I guess it shows his devotion to her and how strong he feels about her.
But I think you make a good point.
He's not really addressing the root cause of the conflict here at all.
 
He's basically saying, well, I. I had a scare.
And it's like, yeah, you did have a scare.
Like it was completely caused by your own behavior.
And none of that is resolved in this moment.
 
In some ways, it seems like Megan isn't even going to hang around to see if it's resolved. She mentions as she gets up that she needs to get to work.
She lingers with him as he hugs her from his knees.
But as you point out, the roots of this fight and the origins of his conduct are not examined.
 
Jenna: I think she is flattered to see how much he needs her, and I think she's genuinely concerned for him here.
But without an apology or a real conversation or promise to do better,
no matter how bright and shiny they walk into the office later,
it doesn't seem like they're closer.
It seems like this is unresolved, and they pushed it to the back of the closet.
 
Steve: Yeah, and I think that's reflected in her comment, you know, “Every time we fight, it just diminishes us a little bit.”
I think that really hits at that exact point. You know, there's no fixing it, mending it.
It's now a fact, a truth. It's part of the history of this relationship.
 
 
Jenna: So as Don comes into his office,
he ends up heading to the conference room to meet with Bert Cooper, who left some comments on sketches.
And Bert says,
“You have a little girl running everything.”
And this is the second line that most certainly describes Peggy, but it's also interesting if we ascribe that to Megan,
“you have a little girl running everything.”
 
Because in his head, it's only Megan he's attending to right now.
 
Steve: Yeah. There's a duality, I think, to the comment that creative workload's been put on Peggy's shoulders,
and in his own personal life,
it's his wife that is the focus of his attentions.
 
Jenna: And what did you think about this - Bert Cooper calling Don Draper to task here?
 
Steve: I love it, and I think it's completely warranted and appropriate.
And I've said it before, to me, Bert is the voice of reason,
and he is dead right in his assessment here.
 
Don doesn't really have a rebuttal,
so when he responds, it's none of your business,
Bert's also correct to say that it is his business.
And then he just leaves, because there is no argument. There's no debate. Bert's called it.
 
 
Jenna: So this ending with the glass conference room walls, and Don's sitting alone in that conference room, and through the glass, he sees Peggy walking one direction by herself.
 
And then Stan Ginsberg and Megan go the opposite direction.
So to be in Don Draper's shoes is to be alone.
It's a beautiful, beautiful shot.
 
Then Roger pops his head in to announce, “It's going to be a beautiful day.”
And he's so completely happy to be free of Jane, in spite of his constant insistence about how happy he was with her.
 
And it feels unusually optimistic that Roger is so ready to start over, and not a little more reflective about another expensive divorce, or what he gave up for his relationship with Jane and what he got out of it in the end.
But he's just kind of leaning into happiness here.
 
Steve: He seems very childlike.
He's got the financial means, so an expensive divorce with Jane, you know, he has a ton of money now. He'll have a half ton of money.
It's not a problem financially.
 
So really the only shackles and burden on Roger Sterling was this unhappy relationship that he's now free of.
So yeah, he's just feeling liberated,
excited at the potential of where the future may take him.
 
Although we know the root cause of his problems, you know, none of that has changed. And you know, is he really going to find a better solution, or just continue to wallow in his depression and focused on getting older?
 
Jenna: Do you have any overall thoughts about this episode, about the construction of the three different stories, or anything else?
 
Steve: I enjoyed this episode, and I like the format where we stick with a story in three sequential segments rather than jumping around. So to me, it's a nice change of pace because I also, I like jumping around in the other episodes too.
I have no issue with that.
 
It's good to shake it up here. What are we - halfway through the fifth season and we've had the horror episode, we've had this format,
so I appreciate the efforts to spice things up and try and keep it fresh.
 
 
Jenna: Our episode coming up is a super memorable one. That one is At the Codfish Ball, so we're looking forward to talking about that one.
 
Our listener shout out today goes to William D.
Thank you for listening and commenting on our YouTube channel.
 
We are so thankful to all our listeners who take time to leave five star ratings and positive reviews and comments for our podcast. Thank you so much.
 
Steve: That's it for this episode of All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, Mad Men C to Z .com to vote for your favorite Sterling Lines and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
Jenna: You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at Mad Men C to Z,  and please listen, like, and subscribe. That's what the podcast's for!
 
Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.