Mad Men C to Z S5E3 Tea Leaves Podcast Transcript

This is the full, human-edited version of our Mad Men C to Z discussion of Tea Leaves, from Season Five, Episode 3 of Mad Men. You can find more details about this episode on our Tea Leaves episode page, and follow us on socials @MadMenCtoZ.
You can listen to the episode here.
You can also find it here on Spotify, or here on YouTube.

Mad Men C to Z S5E3 Tea Leaves Podcast Transcript
 
Jenna:  Hi, I'm Jenna.
 
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each re-watch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men C to Z.
 
Jenna: This episode is Season five, Episode three, Tea Leaves.
It was written by Erin Levy and Matthew Weiner, and directed by Jon Hamm.
 
This episode is not a favorite for me, but the early episodes in each season of Mad Men tend to be setting up the complexities that make the later episodes so rich and compelling.
 
The parts in this episode I like best are Henry being such a nice guy, and Peggy being the hiring committee for Michael Ginsberg. How do you feel about this episode overall?
 
Steve: I think I'm pretty close to where you are. I really like the Michael Ginsberg character, so I'm happy to see him show up here.
 
 
Jenna: Mad Men is almost always dealing with issues surrounding perception and image and the discrepancy between what is real and what is performed,
but I feel like this particular episode is dealing with that very explicitly: how things look, as opposed to what is authentic.

 
For example, we see Roger being a lot more interested in looking like a successful account man than actually being one.
And there are lots of other examples as we go through the episode.
 
The first scene opens with Betty dressing for an evening out with Henry.
Her dress won't zip up, and we can see she's gained weight, so she begs off and sends Henry off to the event with his mother instead.
 
Steve: Betty's put on a lot of weight, and we know that the actress January Jones is pregnant at the time, actually, but within the context of the show, I think the point here is that Betty is eating her sorrow, eating her unhappiness.
 
And I guess my question to you is why is Betty so unhappy?
Isn't Henry an upgrade from Don, or at least the aspects of Don which were making Betty so unhappy previously?
 
And yet she's only been with Henry for a brief period of time here, and already it seems that she's back to being a bit of a gloomy Gus.
 
Jenna: I don't really love this storyline for Betty.
They talked about options being making her pregnant again, or trying to hide the pregnancy with countertops and things. They did add a lot of prosthetics for filming.
 
And I know they had a backstory for Betty about her mother caring about her weight, and how she lost weight in her tween years, so I can see how the writers thought this was very consistent.
 
I feel like Betty is so image-conscious that I just don't feel like it's a valid plot line for her.
I wish it were more thoughtful and intentional. And I feel like Betty deserves a more interesting story.
 
And to your question, I guess I just think her old discontent at being a married mother is creeping in again, even though her new husband is a lot more supportive and attentive than Don was.
 
And I wish there were something more satisfying, because we're just looking at this person being unhappy.
I do - I do know people who are that way. Or you look at them and go, wow, they seem really unhappy, even though by outward appearances it seems like they should be more fulfilled.
 
Steve: It feels a little unsatisfactory to me as well. This notion that Betty is just made to be unhappy perhaps needs to have some sort of career or opportunity outside the home,
but to just dismiss her as an unhappy character doomed to remain unhappy,
yeah, it's not a great feeling.
 
Jenna: The contrast between Betty's struggle to zip her dress is shown in the next scene as Don zips Megan's dress as they get ready to go out together.
 
Megan is on the phone with her mother and she passes the phone to Don, insisting he say hello.
So Megan is building Don into her family life as a normal thing, even though we see him resisting just the way he resisted being part of Betty's family too.
 
Steve: Well, at least he has a decent excuse here. He doesn't speak French.
 
Jenna: In the next scene, Megan and Don are having dinner with Raymond from Heinz and his wife, played by Robin Pearson Rose.
You may have seen her in What Women Want, Grey's Anatomy, or 1978's An Enemy of the People, with Steve McQueen.
 
What did you think about this dinner in terms of Megan being Betty's replacement at the client dinner?
 
Steve: It seems to me that Megan is doing a fairly decent job here. I mean, she's new to this sort of hobnobbing and we've got the generational gap, but it does seem like she's present, she's intelligent, she's making conversation.
 
So despite a bit of awkwardness, it seems to me she's doing a decent job in representing, well, here as the spouse of Mr. Don Draper.
Don and the Heinz couple are quite detached from the new reality of the new generation, as represented by Megan.
 
Jenna: Of course, Betty was always very good at the client dinner part of the relationship.
Here Don is wanting to parade Megan in front of people on his timeline for his purposes, but he doesn't want to have to talk to her mother on the phone, right?
 
So she needs to be there for his ask, but for her ask, you know, he's busy and stuff. [Laughing]
 
But Betty understood this was part of her job to support him in this way.
And Megan does a good job. She's just not quite as natural.
Because when Mrs. Geiger says, oh, this work talk is boring, isn't it, Megan?
 
And there's a pause when Megan realizes she's supposed to agree instead of participating in the work conversation. Don seems to expect her to show up and look pretty and just say mild, forgettable things.
 
Steve: That's pretty par for the course for Don Draper, I think, as well, right?
Like he's wrapped up in his own business thoughts. It's up to Megan to read the room and figure out how to respond.
 
I did get a kick out of the idea of the Rolling Stones as this fresh and threatening upcoming band that young kids are listening to, rather than the household word it is decades later.
 
Jenna: Yes, the key point of this scene is that Raymond's daughter loves the Rolling Stones,
so he thinks maybe Don can get them to saying, Heinz is on my side.
 
And we talked last time about how Don wasn't his usual self with clients,
and I felt like Don was very soft in his response to this, because I would have expected it to be a hard no right from the beginning.
 
Steve: Well, we know that Don has been preaching the client is always right, Don knows this is a ridiculous idea and has low probability of working.
 
But if that's the direction that Heinz wants to go, then Don is going to humor the client and give it his best try before he comes back to them with the bad news.
 
Jenna: I know they're setting this relationship up for a payoff later this season,
but this writing doesn't seem as fresh or interesting, and the scene felt like it kind of dragged to me.
 
 
Steve: The next scene is back in Pete's office, where he and Lane are awaiting Roger's arrival.
It's a little bit of a power play by Roger Sterling.
 
The good news for the firm is that Mohawk is back,
and Pete even suggests that Roger handle this account, which will actually give Roger something to do.
 
Jenna: And Roger immediately intuits that Mohawk asked for him to be their account guy, even though Pete is pretending to be giving it to him.
 
Mohawk is a fairly big client, and they're going to need a copywriter besides Peggy.
Lane, of course, isn't happy about this, because it's another cost for the firm.
But Roger seems really chipper. I think he's really happy to be back in the game again.
 
Steve: It does seem like a win, win, win for everybody here, as much as Lane's grousing about having to hire someone.
 
Jenna: Roger also has to be feeling pretty good because he has his own secretary all to himself again.
 
We get to meet Don's new secretary, who is also named Dawn, but spelled differently, of course.
Dawn Chambers is played by Teyonah Parris, and she was Coco in Dear White People, a vastly different role from Dawn, as well as in Candyman, WandaVision, Empire, No Good Deed, and Survivor's Remorse.
 
Steve: Now we've got an African American admin assistant working in the firm, and she is the first and only one we've seen to this point.
 
And from what we can see of Dawn in this scene, she appears to be perfectly competent and able to do the job.
So the reason that she and other African Americans were being excluded from this work starts to ring hollow. She's perfectly capable of performing it.
 
Jenna: I think there's a lot of feeling in the fandom that Dawn - Dawn D A W N is Don's best secretary ever.
 
Yeah, it's nice to see her come on board. And this gag did go right for Sterling Cooper because she's a great hire.
 
 
Next up, Harry greets Don with plans to meet the Rolling Stones backstage at Forest Hills Stadium, where they really played on July 2, 1966. They're going to pitch a commercial idea for Heinz.
 
They have this short exchange where Harry wants to have dinner first and Don just rejects him without an excuse, very much the way Jane rejected Ken once upon a time.
 
 
Steve: We also saw that when Megan was leaving Don's office, she has a very cool salutation to Harry.
We know Harry is continuing to be nervous about having embarrassed himself in front of Megan and what may or may not have gotten back to Don Draper.
 
Jenna: That's a good point. We never actually find out for sure if Megan told Don. I guess I always assumed she didn't tell him, because I feel like Don would have a total temper tantrum at Harry about it and Megan would want to avoid that scene.
 
But I know that Don dislikes Harry so much already that maybe he just chalked it up to that's how Harry is. I don't know. That's an interesting question.
 
Steve: Well, and just knowing how hyperactive Harry's mind is, leaving him with this lack of clarity might be more devious and problematic for Harry than if there was an actual communication and then a clarification from Don.
You know, Harry's left in this gray space. His mind is just going to gnaw away at itself.
 
 
Jenna: We get so many pop culture references in this episode,
including the next scene with Betty on the sofa. She's watching the Andy Griffith show and eating Bugles chips in her robe.
One suspects Pete would not approve.
 
Steve: There's a knock at the door, and Pauline, Henry's mother, arrives.
Pauline brings up the subject of Betty's weight.
 
Jenna: Henry, I don't think understands why Betty is making the excuses, but Pauline reads right through.
It was because her dress couldn't zip up, and she couldn't fit into it that she begged off. It wasn't that she didn't want to go.
 
Pauline's advice is, hey, you know, there are pills you can take.
Betty is insulted, but she doesn't put up much of a fight about what Pauline is saying.
I think she does want to go out with Henry and feel pretty and admired,
and she doesn't feel like she can do that right now.
 
Steve: I do feel for Betty in this scene, because we know that Henry's mother is quite overbearing.
Most of us would think she should butt out of Henry and Betty's relationship.
And it does feel like Betty is almost conceding the points and more sad than resistant or rebellious against them.
 
Jenna: Let's also point out Pauline is pushing Betty to try diet pills in the same year the Rolling Stones released the song about Mother's Little Helper.
So that's an interesting connection.
 
I feel like this whole plot line could have been a good opportunity for Betty to do some soul-searching about what matters to her instead of her looks, because she's really only cared about that most of the time.
 
She could realize she loves Henry and she feels safe in her relationship.
She could go find a meaningful hobby, or develop a talent or, you know, maybe listen to her kids once in a while.
 
But all she gets to care about are her looks and her status. And I wish more for her.
Again, and it comes back around with Pauline's line here where she says, honestly, at my age, I don't have to please men anymore because it's a job.
And these women understand it's a job they have to do.
 
And Pauline feels free of that job because of her age.
And people like Peggy are trying to be free from doing just that, only that.
 
And I feel like Megan, in marrying the older Don, is just starting her struggle of wanting to please him full time, but also realizing she has other ambitions.
 
So this conflict in 1966, where we feel like a lot of change has happened,
this is still existing, and it's still a lot of pressure.
 
And my problem with Betty is that I understand her feeling like she's trapped,
but I don't ever get the sense of what she would like to seek out instead.
So I feel a little frustrated with her.
 
Steve: I think, for me, it's disheartening that not only is Betty feeling this pressure to please, but Pauline seems to be on the side of the men in this case and advocating for that, as if this is appropriate and something that Betty needs to focus on.
 
So if it's not tough enough to have to worry about pleasing your husband,
to have other women like his busybody mother poking around and bringing this up explicitly directly to her, it's a rough spot.
 
And I think if we wonder why Betty is so unhappy and so much of her sense of accomplishment and her place in the world has hinged upon her good looks, getting overweight is really problematic because that's taking away the very heart of what she feels makes her special or notable or gets her the kind of attention she wants to get in society.
 
Jenna: And it's such a pervasive mentality Pauline has, because we know Joan's mother was saying something similar to her after she had her baby, too.
 
So I understand why Betty doesn't feel like she can turn around and say, you know what? Have a Bugle. It's all good here.
 
But again, I see Betty's shallowness, and I wish she would take this opportunity to reach for some more depth.
And instead, it feels like she just goes right back to the place where she was unhappy before.
 
 
Steve: Back in the office, Beggy joins Roger and Don's office, and they talk about the return of Mohawk and the need to hire a copywriter.
Don says that Peggy's plate is full, so she'll need to hire someone.
 
Roger helpfully adds that it needs to be a brilliant award winner who looks better than Don.
 
Jenna: I love when Peggy goes, oh, that'll be easy, and she walks out.
It's such a great exchange.
 
Anytime you put Peggy and Roger and they have dialogue in a room together, I'm here for it. He's like, “I don't just want some hack. He should be brilliant.”
 
Steve: And how unhelpful is this from Roger? Again, like, he's not adding any value or saying anything. Nobody goes to hire someone who's mediocre. So it's just, I think, further underlines the lack of utility that Roger has in the office.
 
There are certain things he can do or has done, but much of the time he's really not adding any value.
 
Jenna: Well, and they insist that the copywriter be a man. That Mohawk's going to want a man.
 
But I thought it would have been so interesting if Megan had gotten her own account as a copywriter,
especially Roger's account, that that would have offered some really interesting plots. But that's not how it went.
 
Steve: And I think Megan's probably too green at this point. Megan's experience consists of seducing Don Draper at this point.
 
Jenna: Well, she's written some coupons, okay? I'm sure she's good.
 
 
Next, Betty visits the doctor and she asks about taking diet pills.
But instead, the doctor notices something on her thyroid.
 
As is typical in this show, the doctor is insensitive,
so he touches her neck and he goes, oh, I don't like that. And she says, what? And he shushes- [Laughing] - he shushes her without answering.
 
So this is kind of emblematic of Betty's whole life, right? Sit still, look pretty. There's something really wrong with you, but I'm not going to tell you what right now.
 
Steve: Mad Men is pretty rough on the doctors.
With someone like Betty, we know he's going to be setting Betty off and just letting her imagination run wild, which is exactly what happens.
Betty is in a full-on panic by the time she gets home and attempts to call Henry.
 
Jenna: I think Betty is understandably worried about this news or potential news.
And when she gets home, she calls out for Henry three times.
But when she picks up the phone, she doesn't call Henry. She calls Don.
 
She tells him about her health scare.
And again, it's such a terrible look, Betty. I mean, it isn't until Don says, do you want me to take the kids?
That's the first time Betty actually thinks about her kids.
 
I feel like that's always the first thing you think about, especially when your kids are little, right? Like, if something happens to me, what does that mean for my kids?
 
But Betty has only thought about herself until Don mentions them.
 
Steve: Yeah, it's very striking, especially when you have such young kids where you know, they're so reliant upon you.
So the notion that Betty didn't even think of her three children until this moment,
it's a bad look for Betty Draper in terms of her mom of the year candidacy.
 
Jenna: And when you start to think about this, because Sally is getting older and more independent, but I think you could argue it's a time in your life when you do need a really supportive mother . . . figure at least.
But Betty hasn't been a supportive mother figure, so there's also that truth.
 
Steve: And she certainly can't go to Henry's mother as a surrogate for her own either, right? So, yeah, Betty is really high and dry here. And maybe that helps to explain why she so quickly turns to Mr.
Don Draper.
 
Jenna: And Don is worried enough to call her his pet name. He calls her Birdie. And she calms herself down by saying, “Say what you always say.”
 
And Don knows the line.
“Everything's gonna be okay,” he says. And he doesn't know at all if that's true.
 
And it is so weird to me how his lie steadies her. It - she finds it comforting.
But I think maybe when you get life-changing information,
there is comfort in going back to what you know and doing what you have done in the time before your world shifted.
 
So even if that thing is named Don Draper and he's notoriously unreliable,
going back to that for a second when everything felt sort of okay, I guess maybe that is comforting.
 
Steve: I can accept that for Betty Draper, Betty Francis as a character.
For me personally, it's quite the opposite. I think the last thing I'd ever want to hear, having gone through a failed marriage with Don Draper, was him giving the line, everything's going to be okay, when we know that he's talking through his hat and has no idea.
 
Okay, Betty, if that's what you want to hear. In this moment, it feels hollow to me.
Really, I'm just left saying, okay, we need the results of these diagnostic tests to know if we really have a problem here.
 
Jenna: And it's sad, too.
I mean, I don't think Don wishes her ill or anything,
but it's too bad that Betty didn't call Henry when Henry is so in her corner.
So it feels a bit like a betrayal of the support and trust he gives her.
 
Steve: I do feel that Don Draper behaves appropriately in this scene. Like we don't get any sense of he's taking an opportunity to stick it to her or to be cruel or to deny her something she wants.
 
He seems very supportive and eager to try and help her through this moment emotionally. And I think it. It gives a hint of maybe that tinge of regret that the marriage failed, in that at his best, in his good moments, he's a pretty good partner.
 
Unfortunately, there are other moments where he's not at his best.
 
 
Jenna: Next, we see Peggy looking through the portfolios for copywriters.
While Stan is working at his desk, she finds a portfolio that says,
“Judge not, lest ye be judged” on the cover. And it has a bunch of intriguing ads inside.
 
Steve: I have to laugh at Stan in this scene because like some other characters,
he seems to assume that Peggy's worried about hiring someone who would be too good and would potentially threaten her position in the hierarchy.
 
Which completely misreads Peggy Olson, who's completely focused on the mission at hand, which is to get the best possible copywriter in here to look after this account in the best possible way.
 
Which I guess speaks well to Peggy's professionalism,
but I think simultaneously also speaks to perhaps how green and naive she is,
because most people, after they've got a bit of experience and seen how things work, are at least going to give some thought to who is it I'm bringing in the door behind me.
 
Jenna: I really appreciate this exchange with Stan in this scene.
And I think it's a strong differentiator between Peggy and Don.
 
And it's going to matter a lot going forward, because when Stan advises Peggy not to hire the best person, he says, stick to mediocre. You'll sleep better.
 
And I understand that mentality, right? I think Pete and Don would hire the fourth best portfolio, too.
But Peggy says she likes –
 
Steve: Really? Really. I'm a little surprised to hear you say that.
 
Jenna: Oh, I think Pete absolutely would pay attention to his status.
And I think we know with the benefit of having watched the show before,
I think we can see how threatened Don is when he's not the most creative guy in the room.
 
You don't get better working with Paul Kinsey.
And I think this is really to Peggy's credit because she says she likes working with talented people. It inspires her.
 
So she's going to go with the best one. And Stan calls her out for being competitive, which she absolutely is. We know he's right.
 
But she understands that you get better when you're around people who lift you up.
And Paul Kinsey isn't that.
And how long did Don keep that guy around? And what did he offer, exactly?
 
I love that when Peggy is given some decision making power, she wants the most creative Creative.
 
Steve: Well, and the portfolio that's caught her eye is a Mr. Michael Ginsberg. It seems to have a bit of an edge to it. And I think Peggy correctly reads that this sort of portfolio is something that's going to interest Don Draper as well.
 
 
Jenna: Next, Betty's in the bath, and Henry comes in to say he's made some calls to get her to see a specialist, and she's afraid. So she tries to put it off, but Henry's really good here.
He truly loves and supports Betty and he says, look, you know, we don't want to wait.
 
Steve: And I think he's trying to be a calming presence and reassure her that, you know, they really don't know anything yet.
But I think Henry's a great partner saying, look, you know, we'll face this together, and I'm all in in it with you.
 
Jenna: I don't love this too tall, too-wide body double they use as Betty is shown getting out of the tub. It's really distracting, and the person doesn't move anything like the way Betty does.
So that takes you out of it a little bit, too.
 
 
Steve: The next day at the medical facility, Betty bumps into her old friend Joyce.
 
Jenna: Joyce Starling is played by Adria Tennor, and we've seen her at Sally's birthday party in The Marriage of Figaro. She was part of the couple Don caught kissing and in love with his movie camera.
And she also showed up at Betty's fundraiser in Wee Small Hours in season three.
 
Steve: Betty does not know yet that she even has cancer.
But we can see Joyce here standing as the worst case scenario for Betty's mind. And Betty's mind is already racing.
 
Jenna: And I feel like the writers are playing with us a lot here, because Betty looked at Helen Bishop's life as a cautionary tale a lot in the first season.
 
And now for her to have another friend from the past having this outcome that she never thought would be possible for her, this makes it seem more real, like this could really happen as well.
 
 
Steve: Back in the office, we see Peggy interviewing her candidate, Michael Ginsberg.
 
Jenna: This is probably my favorite scene in this entire episode.
 
Michael Ginsberg is played by Ben Feldman and he's done a ton of work, including Superstore, Silicon Valley, Ghosts, and Drop Dead Diva.
I feel like Ben Feldman and Elisabeth Moss have really great chemistry. It's not romantic, but it's very authentic.
 
And I also love another character getting really quick, snappy lines in addition to just Roger.
Ginsberg brings out the irritation in Peggy pretty early.
He's only six lines in before she's explaining, “I'm the person you need to impress right now.”
 
Steve: I really love Ben Feldman's work here. To me, he's just perfectly cast for this role and makes Michael Ginsberg a far more interesting character than he has any right to be.
 
I also agree with you. I think this is probably my favorite scene in the episode.
Just the way he gets on Peggy's nerves.
It's a great scene where I think Elisabeth Moss is perfect opposite Ben Feldman.
There's just such a manic, neurotic energy to him.
It's just perfect. I love this character.
 
Jenna: And I don't want to drop major spoilers, but for those of us who know where this character is headed, when you rewatch this and catch these details, there are so many in here that hint to where we're going.
 
Steve: You know, this person who's got talent and perhaps ego,
but lacks the social skill side of things.
And in many ways this is a more extreme version of Peggy. Right? She's got talent.
Ego doesn't seem to be a problem for her,
but she does suffer a bit with the social skills side of it and how to behave.
So it's funny to see her bumping into a more extreme version of some of her traits.
 
Jenna: We see Ginsberg is not like anybody else in the office,
but I think Peggy has been uniquely prepared for him.
She's friends with Joyce and she's dating Abe. And she has more of an openness to idiosyncrasies than I think Don or Pete would.
 
For example, she knows Don will hate him for riffing around topics and for being unwilling to suck up where sucking up is clearly required.
But Peggy, I think, is maybe willing to overlook that.
 
Steve: Well, and I think she's also cognizant that, yeah, don't hate that aspect of him.
But Don is going to like somebody who zigs when others zags, who sees things in a different, unique way.
And that's exactly the kind of creative magic that Don Draper loves the most.
So, yeah, Michael Ginsberg really is this double edged sword.
 
Jenna: It goes by so fast, you can miss it, but I think it matters when Ginsberg says,
I didn't pick this profession, it picked me.
Turns out it's the only thing I can do.
 
But he's obviously smart and observant. So with evidence here, I don't believe him in this. I just think he's very passionate about it, like Peggy.
 
Knowing what we know later about his character, and that he's been through a lot of firms already,
I think maybe he has tried or wanted to do other things.
But it makes sense that somebody who's pretty anti conformist would lean away from advertising.
 
He does pretend for a second to be related to Allen Ginsberg. That's a poet and activist who was part of the Beat generation, who was notably opposed to capitalism and conformity.
 
Steve: I love when Peggy tells him that he can't act this way with Don.
And you can see she's got this burden of responsibility that if he goes in front of Don, and he's the candidate that Peggy's presenting, now her reputation is starting to get wrapped up with his behavior.
 
With the challenge of hiring comes additional risks. And I love the way Elizabeth Moss plays the scene.
 
Jenna: I like when Ginsberg promises he has no hobbies, no friends, no girlfriend, he works all the time. And Peggy goes, then you're like everybody else.
And he goes, I've never been accused of that.
 
 
 
Steve: In the next scene, we have Joyce and Betty having their lunch.
We find out that Joyce hasn't even told her children yet that she has cancer and is undergoing serious treatment for it.
 
We also find out that Joyce wasn't even informed of her own condition until her third appointment.
So this, of course, alluding back to the fact that the doctors are talking past the patient to their spouse, typically, and not even showing the respect and attention to the person who's actually got the condition.
 
Joyce makes it clear that she's also hiding from saying goodbye to those around her.
 
Jenna: I think this conversation between Betty and Joyce is really memorable because what Joyce is saying is so powerful and painful.
If you've lost somebody and watched them preparing to go, you can relate to what she says about feeling like she's on an island,
waving to other people, and feeling apart from them at the same time.
 
It seems like just kind of a clunky construction to have her show up here.
We know this speech is for Betty's benefit.
It suffers from a lack of authenticity for me between the characters,
even though I think it's a true reflection of what real people experience.
 
Steve: That's an interesting observation, and I can agree with that.
It's interesting to me that Betty seems to identify with Joyce's reality.
But we know that Betty is not yet on that island and in that condition necessarily,
she's yet to find out.
 
So Betty is making a big leap here and assuming that this is going to be her condition.
So she's really feeling and commiserating with Joyce's comments.
But I think she's jumped the gun.
 
Jenna: Of course, this scene also gives the episode its title, Tea Leaves.
So the fortune teller comes by, and she says Betty is a great soul who means so much to the people around her.
And it makes Betty cry because she's thinking it might all be ending.
 
But it makes me want to cry because she's not a great soul. And her treatment of people around her is so superficial. Even her kids, who really need her, and Henry, who really loves her.
 
And here she is with her friend who has a terminal cancer diagnosis, and that friend is comforting her here about being replaced by Megan, even though she is for sure facing something serious and Betty doesn't have all the information yet.
 
Steve: So are you calling into question the accuracy and precision of tea leaf readings?
The irony in this situation is Joyce ends up comforting Betty.
Shouldn't Betty be consoling Joyce rather than the other way around? At least at this point.
 
Jenna: We see some of that same fear about being replaced that Betty has about being replaced with Megan - we see that in Roger with Pete,
and it was raised with Peggy about Michael Ginsberg. Harry and Pete are perpetually worried that somebody else will get more toys.
 
It's a real phenomenon, but I think it's so unlikable where this is what Betty's worried about with Megan.
She says “they'll never hear a nice word about me again.”
 
And I really feel like her worry for her kids should be something else.
I mean, I just, I want my fiction to be more noble than real life, I guess.
 
Steve: I hear you, but it really does seem on brand for Betty to behave this way. Again, it's this worry about how she'll be perceived by others, rather than getting to what ideally we would say is, you know, the, the substantive heart of things that that really should matter.
 
Jenna: We critique Don for keeping barriers up that keep him alone, but Betty's self centered nature is doing that to her.
 
And I think she becomes a caricature, because there's nothing about her to admire.
You can pity her circumstances, but she's so unlikable at this point. It's just that's not realistic for any human.
 
Even Harry gets sympathetic moments, even if they're very brief.
So I just don't think this writing does her character justice.
 
 
Steve: A drunk Roger Sterling comes into Peggy's office to talk about the new hire.
He urges Peggy to hire the candidate she's got because he's already told Mohawk that they have a hire.
And he's also told them that the new hire is Jewish.
 
Roger, making a similar mistake to Stan, reassures Peggy that the new hire won't replace her, so she shouldn't have any hesitation about hiring someone who's too good.
 
But again, he's misreading Peggy.
Peggy makes it clear she's more worried that Don Draper is going to hate Michael Ginsberg.
 
Jenna: Yes, I like that Peggy reiterates she's not threatened by Ginsberg's talent, because that is the lens Roger tries to assign to her.
But she says rightly, I think Don will hate him, because Peggy understands the brief, and Roger doesn't care.
 
Steve: And Roger's gone off and shot off his mouth again, right? Saying that they've hired somebody and that they're Jewish.
 
So he's setting Peggy up to more of a trap here in that,
you know what, if this falls through or whatever, she's going to have to go out and find another candidate who's Jewish in order to make Roger Sterling not look like a liar with the client.
 
And there was no reason for Roger to start making these commitments or statements to the client.
 
Jenna: We get a truth call-out about that, too. He says, to tell you the truth, clients think hiring a Jewish person makes the agency more modern.
 
My favorite part in this exchange is when Peggy says Ginsberg is crazy,
so let's put a pin in that assessment.
 
And when Roger says, what's crazy for a copywriter? Sleeps all day, disrespects authority, smells like pee.
And the only thing Peggy takes issue with is, “Who smells like pee?” [Laughing]
Which is fantastic.
 
Steve: Again, this scene just seems to illustrate to me how Roger isn't a very serious person when it comes to the job.
 
And for somebody who's been lamenting his lack of a role and lack of responsibility here at what should be you and your most focused place, we don't really get anything that's all that effective.
 
 
Jenna: Back at Megan and Don's apartment, Megan's reading magazines while Don gets ready to go to the Rolling Stones concert.
 
He comes out and she has this line, my God, you're so square, you've got corners.
And he says, I have to be sure I look like the man.
 
Which is kind of funny because every time he gets dressed, it's a bit of a costume anyway.
 
Steve: And it's another point just emphasizing how Don is not of the youth generation. He's not all that old, right? He's just turned 40, but 40 might as well be 70, because this youth-oriented culture, and the largest demographic generation in US History, the baby boomers, is just coming into adulthood.
 
So the gap between the prior generation, like a Don Draper who served in Korea and this new generation is so huge.
 
And it makes it all the more amusing that this Madison Avenue executive in his suit is going to try and get in to see the Rolling Stones in 1966.
 
 
Jenna: And the next scene takes us backstage at the Rolling Stones concert,
which was actually filmed this scene at the Mad Men sets parking garage.
 
I don't love this stuff with this young girl that Don meets up with and talks to.
I think like Lane and the photo in the wallet last episode, it takes too long,
and it's uncomfortable, because I think Don's history makes you worried there's going to be something romantic here and it gives me the ick.
 
And I feel like I'm kind of tired of having them bring in random characters who get a lot of time and then they aren't really that critical.
 
Weiner says in the commentary that this girl makes Don aware of Sally growing up too fast. But I would have much rather have had a scene between the two of them than this one.
 
Steve: Wow, you're pretty tough on the writing team this episode.
I share your sense of concern of is Don Draper going to hit on this young girl, just given Don Draper's proclivities.
So I am relieved that he doesn't.
 
And it really turns into more of him representing his generation, questioning the young generation.
And that's part of this disconnect between the two of them. The old generation thinking that they need to have the answers or these are the questions they need to have responses to, whereas the young generation is living its life and exploring things and pursuing what it wants to pursue.
 
It doesn't have any necessarily have any long term vision of where things are going to end up. It's youth enjoying youth, and that's just the way it is.
 
I agree with you at the prospect of having a similar conversation, except between Sally and Don directly. That does sound very appealing.
 
But again, I am amused to see Harry and Don outside the dressing room with all the groupies and hangers on, hoping to get in to see the Rolling Stones.
 
And I also like the reference to Allen Klein, who actually was the Rolling Stones manager and several years later the Rolling Stones will realize has been ripping them off and lead them to make a huge break.
 
Allen Klein, by the way, also ripped off the Beatles, and had been referred to them by the Beatles before the Beatles realized that Klein was doing the same thing to them.
 
Jenna: Bonnie, who plays the young girl in this scene, is played by Hayley McFarland, and you may recognize her from Pushing Daisies or Sons of Anarchy.
The girls reference a TV show called Bewitched, which ran from 1964 to 1972, of course also in reruns.
 
And this was a show in which the main character's husband works in advertising on Madison Avenue. So that's kind of a fun call-out.
 
 
Next we get a quick scene with Henry and Betty in bed and she leans over to kiss him. He's there for it. And we learn it's been a while since they've been together.
 
I feel like this is Betty leaning into her life and the good things about it.
And I also noticed she leaves the light on. Remember before she insisted Don turn the light out?
 
Steve: We can see that Henry is truly in love with Betty.
He's a good husband. He's supportive. He's respectful of her.
 
So we know that Betty's got this underlying dissatisfaction or unhappiness in her life.
But unlike before, when I think we could attribute a lot of that to Don Draper as the root cause, I'm left looking at the character in this circumstance, thinking, I don't think it has to do with outside forces. I think this is within Betty Draper herself.
 
 
Jenna: Backstage for the Rolling Stones, there's a lot of waiting and anxiety about who might be let in to meet the band.
And the girl, like us, is really skeptical Don can convince the Rolling Stones to be part of anything as uncool as a beans ad.
 
I'll link an article on our episode webpage on Mad Men, C to Z, to The Who Sellout album of 1967, which featured a song called Heinz Baked Beans, since this whole storyline has to be a nod to that.
 
Steve: Don seems to shift into father mode.
In this particular scene, the girl's putting on a bit of bravado and perhaps acting a little older and more knowing than she really is, particularly when she takes Don's tie and wraps it around herself.
 
But I get the sense here that Don's interest, again, it's not sexual. He's back on the clock and trying to understand this new generation and using her as a bit of a portal to try and figure out what it wants and where it's going.
 
And he can see the passion she has about this particular band.
But as he probes further to ask, well, you know, what do you want to do? Or how do you want to interact with them, and all the rest of it,
it doesn't appear that her interests are anything more than almost sort of a schoolgirl fantasy about getting to be with, say, Brian Jones.
And that's not really telling Don Draper anything that he can use in his ad campaigns.
 
Jenna: And I think she's equally frustrated by his questions, because to her they seem irrelevant.
So we see Don working, as we saw him in the pilot, interviewing anybody he meets to try to enhance his work.
 
But she's almost the embodiment of what Smitty was describing with that Port Huron statement earlier, when he said,
“We don't want to think, we just want to feel,”
which doesn't make any sense to Don, really.
 
But she doesn't want to analyze her feelings for the Rolling Stones. She's young.
She's pretending to be older than she is, that she has everything figured out.
 
So, of course, this is another character grappling with a gap between what is and what isn’t, and how she wants to be perceived or who she wants to become.
I don't think Don knows what to do with that.
 
Steve: I think Don Draper should go back and think about his own impulsive, unthinking actions, like proposing to Megan.
 
And then that would be a direct parallel here and say, let's analyze that a bit, Don Draper, and figure out where that came from and where that's headed.
It's almost like the old generation has forgotten what youth is all about.
 
Or maybe never had this experience, because we know Don had a hardscrabble existence and has had to fight and struggle for everything he has.
So maybe in his youth he never had this carefree moment where everything is in plentiful supply and you can go out and just pursue your impulses and fantasies without a thought or consideration to the day that comes tomorrow.
And maybe Dick Whitman didn't have that opportunity.
 
Jenna: Well, don't you feel like that's unique to this particular cultural time as well? That there's more affluence and more lengthening of childhood, so that people have the opportunity to be playful, instead of getting right to work so that you could afford to feed yourself and that kind of thing?
 
Steve: Oh, absolutely. I think it's a defining trait of the baby boomers and subsequent generations that, and I do agree, I think it's a major break with prior generations which were forced to make much more practical considerations much earlier.
 
 
Jenna: The next scene is Betty having a dream.
Her family is around the dinner table in black, Pauline is serving breakfast, and nobody can hear her or see her.
 
This dream feels a lot more stiff and awkward than the one in The Fog, which had a much more believable dream quality to me.
But the point is, Betty sees this and decides she wants to participate. She wants to sit down and be with her family and not be out of the picture.
 
This is a spoiler - caution ahead at this point.
They had negotiated for three final seasons of Mad Men, so the writers very likely knew where Betty's story would go.
 
I just don't know that this foreshadowing gets us any place super useful, because maybe Betty has a wake up call for a minute or two, but it doesn't spark any big changes by having us go through this.
 
So it reveals her fear of being cast aside and being on the outside instead of being the star, but we already knew that about her. So I guess it's just us having a look at what their lives would be like without Betty.
 
Steve: I kind of like it as a dream scene because it's brief.
And then I would also say in his commentary, Matthew Weiner mentions that, you know, they're not trying to be cliched.
These are really just recent events or items from her life that are jumping into the dream here, and she's imagining a life where she's not present.
 
Yeah, I don't think it's the most essential scene in the world, but it's brief enough I can handle it, and it doesn't feel especially indulgent to me.
 
 
Jenna: Back to the backstage area, the young girl tells Don to stop looking at his watch. The Rolling Stones are going to come when they come.
And she means it as a criticism that Don isn't living in the moment.
 
But I thought it was kind of sweet that it looked like to me he'd rather be home with Megan and not part of this fan crowd here.
 
Then Harry rushes out of a room. He's very excited. He signed the Rolling Stones.
And then a screaming crowd rushes in the opposite direction. Harry signed a different band for Heinz.
 
Steve: Of course, Harry would not even know who the Rolling Stones are. It is amusing to imagine a time when nobody can name a member of the Rolling Stones.
 
In his interaction with the groupie, again, we get this sense of Don trying to represent this parental concern about the young generation and where they're headed.
 
I'm wondering if that concern is really masquerading something else, which is a worry about obsolescence and aging and declining relevance for Don and his generation.
 
Jenna: I don't want to take too much of a detour,
but let's talk a little bit about this Rolling Stones concert, and how amazing it would have been to see at this time period.
 
We'll link to a Bowery Boys article about this on our episode page for Tea Leaves on madmenctoz.com at this time, the Rolling Stones were promoting their Aftermath album, and the set list included Paint It Black, Get Off of My Cloud, and Satisfaction.
 
Musically, this is an incredibly significant time period, too, because we have Simon and Garfunkel's Sounds of Silence, released a few months before this.
The Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds came out a month earlier.
 
We've got the Monkees, Cream, the Doors, and Jimi Hendrix starting to gain notice.
 
But other top hits that year included things like the Ballad of the Green Berets,
these Boots Are Made For Walkin’, and Strangers in the Night by Frank Sinatra,
along with things like California Dreamin and You Can't Hurry Love.
 
So the Stones are a great choice to feature in this time period,
but what a treasure trove of options.
 
Steve: And, well, let's not forget, I think ‘66  - isn't that Revolver and Rubber Soul are both ‘66 from the Beatles, either of which, for any other band, would be the pinnacle of their artistic achievement. And yet the Beatles are just churning them out year after year.
 
Yeah, it's an incredible moment in terms of pop culture and pop music and this simultaneous achievement of much more traditional acts like sort of like a Pat Boone type, whilst you've also got, you know, rebels and dangerous bands like the Rolling Stones was marketed at the time, appealing to the youth and scaring the bejeezus out of the old folks.
 
It is a magical moment and I'm with you. I wish I could time travel back to Forest Hills and catch that concert in 1966. It would have been phenomenal.
 
Jenna: The Trade Winds that Harry met with in this episode instead of the Rolling Stones really did open for them at this concert.
Its members wrote and produced music for several famous performers before and after their own recording career, and their pieces included New York Is a Lonely Town and Mind Excursion.
 
Steve: We've got Harry eating White Castle sliders, Don asking him to get out of the car so Don can go home.
 
It's interesting to me then when Don states that, you know, he's not sure the Rolling Stones are good for anybody's daughter.
And again, I think that's this huge disconnect between the generations, where the old generation is worried about what's good or bad or where it leads to.
 
The very premise is so alien to a member of that young generation who just hears this music that's really exciting and compelling to them.
 
Jenna: We also have to talk about how Harry is so unapologetically selfish about not taking any food home to his family, and then lying to Jennifer because he says, oh, I can't take it home. She has me on a diet. She doesn't want me to eat this.
And he sat there and he ate 20 White Castle sliders.
 
Steve: Yeah. Jennifer's going to wonder if he's some sort of scientific miracle.
He fails to lose weight.
 
 
Jenna: The next morning, Megan wakes Don and tries to get him moving. And Don tells her about Betty. Megan is concerned and it's genuine.
 
But Don offends her by trying to make his worry about Betty something separate,
something Megan can't understand, and she powers right through that.
 
I think we admire her for how she does that, too. It's an important distinction between Megan and Betty because Megan isn't going to let Don sulk at home.
She demands that he participates in her life.
 
And I respect her a lot for saying that. She says, well, you went to the concert last night, but now when it's my friends, this news about Betty is too overwhelming,
and that's so fair.
 
There's a little bit of optimism here that Megan might be what Don needs after all, to pull him out of these sulky habits he has.
 
Steve: Pull him out of these sulky habits, and also blow away some of these lame excuses he has to justify his behavior. Because I agree with you 100%, she catches him with that statement.
 
And again, I wonder if there's part of Don's excuse for trying to beg off. Here comes back to this sense of age and generation gap where he realizes he probably doesn't actually belong on Fire Island with Megan and her friends.
 
And this is problematic. That's not going to be enjoyable for him. He's not going to relate to these people.
Then this is exactly how she wants to spend her day. To me, it's a bit of foreshadowing, I guess, of this gap between the two of them and how difficult it is to overcome this as they go forward in their lives.
 
Jenna: There's also an interesting connection here because as Megan talks about taking Don to a day with her friends on Fire Island, later that month,
Frank O’Hara, who wrote Meditations in an Emergency, which was featured earlier in the series, he would be killed when he was hit by a dune buggy there.
 
So maybe it's a little bit of a reach, but it feels like it could be symbolism to say Megan is helping Don to put away some of that loneliness and isolation he was immersed in before.
He doesn't have to be lost in his New York meditations and loneliness.
 
Steve: And I think it also speaks to, you know, this theme we've been saying that Megan is trying to have a real relationship and really partner with him.
 
And I think in a more modern way than perhaps the traditional arrangement that Betty and Don fell into in their marriage.
And I think this poses challenges for Don.
 
 
Jenna: I do love this next shot of Betty sitting on a chair next to Henry in front of their gorgeous castle house.
Bobby and Sally are running around with sparklers for the Fourth of July,
and Betty leans in and smells Gene's hair as he sits on her lap.
It's such a sweet thing you do with your babies when you appreciate their very being.
And I love seeing Betty take in the moment.
 
Steve: And it feels so rare for Betty to appreciate and live in the moment. Right? She's always fretting and worried about something.
 
If I could go back in time and hold my toddler on my lap,
I would totally inhale the smell of their hair, sweet baby smell.
 
Hopefully Betty Draper's realizing just how much she has and that she's got this loving husband, she's got these beautiful children,
and they've got this affluence and security which allows them to live any way they want. She does have so much to lose in terms of waiting for the results of the diagnostics.
 
But regardless of what that outcome is, the need to appreciate and enjoy what you've got remains right, whether we've got 50 years left or we've got 50 days left.
 
 
Jenna: Next, we see Peggy in with Michael Ginsberg meeting Don.
Roger was supposed to help with this interview, but of course he didn't show because why would he?
 
So Peggy tries to answer questions for Ginsberg, so he won't say anything wrong in front of Don.
 
Steve: Ginsberg is the loose cannon that Peggy's trying to make sure doesn't blast into her face or Don's.
And it looks like Don is not too off put by him. And he's maybe not so attuned to the weirdness.
As you pointed out, Roger's M.I.A. He's so unreliable. It's just hilarious as the meeting wraps and they go out, and then Roger and Michael are both staring out the window.
 
Jenna: And when Ginsberg does talk in the meeting with Don,
he sells hard and he sucks up exactly right.
 
He mentions the letter, but he says it was the funniest thing he ever read, which is not how Don intended it. But Michael means that as a compliment.
 
And he says he wants to be part of this place, and he thinks Don is very interesting.
And that hits exactly the right beats.
And Don is impressed. He compliments Peggy.
 
But then when Peggy goes out, she's so irritated, because Ginsberg controlled his erratic behavior around Don.
So she goes, I thought you were crazy, and you confirmed it by not acting the way you acted with me.
And he goes, you told me not to act that way!
 
Steve: Yeah, I love that line where she says the fact that you can control the crazy is what scares her the most.
 
Jenna: He's very happy he got the job. And he tells Peggy, come on, be proud of me. I need it.
No one in the world cares I got the job but you.
 
And that makes us feel his loneliness,
which we'll see In a second is off because he does have somebody in his life.
 
But I also feel worried about how everything is through his lens and he wants her to act accordingly.
So on first watch, I just think, oh, is this another guy who's going to try to run over her with his opinions?
 
Steve: Well, it does seem like that is a perennial challenge for Peggy in a managerial role here at the firm. So that expectation is well founded. You know, we've seen it to this point,
although Peggy's got a pretty good track record of dealing with the idiots, so I like her odds here.
 
 
Jenna: Next, Betty and Henry are at home waiting for news from the doctor.
Henry takes a work call on his other phone. He makes a reference to George Romney, who was talked about as a presidential nominee for the 1968 election.
And his son, of course, Mitt Romney, did run for president in 2012,
which was around the time this episode aired.
 
Steve: The lab finally calls and Betty takes the call. We can tell from her reaction that the results are good, that the tumor was benign.
 
Henry is relieved and immediately happy. But Betty seems more surprised than stunned. It seemed to me that she had built up the worst case scenario and locked in on it so much that now that it isn't the worst case scenario, and in fact it's the best case scenario, she's having trouble switching out of that lane and getting back into the reality.
 
She does have a funny line when she says that she doesn't have cancer, she's just fat.
 
Jenna: Well, she thought her illness made her gain weight, and now she knows that's not it.
So instead of a sense of a wake up call about what's really important,
Betty goes almost immediately back to resentment.
 
But Henry is such a champion. He says, I feel like I've been given a gift,
like Scrooge seeing his tombstone. But this isn't gonna be.
 
I mean, he has been a rock for her. He was really worried and he didn't let his fears show so it wouldn't bother her.
And now he's truly relieved and thrilled to share his life with her.
And I wish Betty could find a way to feel that joy, too.
 
And I don't think she's especially dissatisfied with Henry. I think she's just an unhappy person.
That's hard to watch.
 
But we know these people, right? Like, they might smile and laugh, but nothing is good enough.
And Trudy excuses that in Pete, who's very much that way as ambition.
 
I think for a long time we could blame Betty's bitterness on Don,
but she has a great partner in Henry, and she just can't seem to find a way to happiness or purpose.
 
Steve: Yeah, there's definitely this duality in that Betty Draper is relieved but at the same time, disappointed. And if I think about, well, how can you be disappointed you don't have a terminal cancer diagnosis?
 
I think it gets back to this martyr fantasy she has of, you know, this romantic ideal that, you know, her life is ending, and now it's having to come back to the reality.
 
And like you pointed out,
I don't think she's especially happy with her reality.
And then that leads to this resentment and frustration.
 
It is the tragedy of our lives, I think, that we've got people who should be happier based on objective circumstances, and they find ways not to be.
And then we also see the reciprocal of that, where we've got people who we feel should be much less happy, and yet they are.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, Pete makes an announcement to the employees at SCDP that he has signed Mohawk Airlines.
And he also says, I've hired a new copywriter, which was work that Peggy did. I don't think Pete even knows who it is.
 
And then he throws Roger under the bus in his announcement before he opens champagne.
 
Steve: I kind of like that Pete Campbell, who I love to hate, is basically shoving people under the bus right and left. You know, he's seizing the authority and responsibility for the hire of the copywriter,
and then, as well, doing the same thing to Roger.
 
Jenna: Roger's really bitter here. He's standing next to Peggy, and he tells her, that's the last guy I hired.
And we can see it's a Frankenstein's monster situation to him.
 
We've seen Pete be that irritated with Roger before,
but this is a new level of frustration for Roger about Pete.
 
As Roger and Don go in to talk privately - and I missed this between them – it’s been a while. I guess you can always bond over irritation about Pete.
 
But when Roger says, I used to hold that kid's hand on the swing set about Pete, of course he means he provided Pete support when he was new, and now Pete is acting ungrateful.
 
And Don, of course, acknowledges that Pete was awful.
But did Roger provide Pete support ever? I'm trying to think of an example when Roger actively supported him. I don't know that he did.
 
Steve: Yeah, I can't think of an occasion. And as we see just how feckless Roger is around the office, this does seem to be a rewriting of history by Roger Sterling as part of his pity party so he can feel sorry about himself.
 
Jenna: Well, I think Don has his own self absorption because he confesses to Roger, Betty has cancer.
 
And that shows us how much Don has been thinking about this and he is at least thinking about the kids. He goes, Megan will try, but how does that end up?
And I feel like that's really selling Megan short here.
 
But it is a truth, a harsh truth. But Betty being gone would be a giant hole for the kids, no matter how awful she is or how supportive Megan might be.
And then Don adds, I imagine them growing up without a mother.
I never had one.
 
And I'm so relieved that Don has some thought for those kids’ experience.
But he's not invested in a plan about what he could do for them.
So he's just like, well, Megan will try.
 
Maybe a mother isn't replaceable, but maybe a father being more invested would also be a good step.
So he has basically already written Betty off and he is in that place of like, okay, what happens now?
 
And it's like, well, Megan's gonna step up, but you, Don, what are you going to do?
 
Steve: And it does seem to be a rather self centered focus on, oh, the children won't have a mother, so Megan will have to fit in there.
 
So here again, I think we've got a case where Don Draper's imagination is running away with him a little bit.
 
Roger's comment back that Betty's a fighter, it's just so comedic because we know that Betty is the opposite of a fighter.
 
 
Jenna: So Roger leaves and Don calls the house to find out the news about Betty, and Henry answers.
Henry didn't know Betty told Don about this.
He shares the news that Betty is okay.
 
Betty never thought to call Don to give him an update. She just called him when she was scared and then like, okay, well, I guess I'll let him just worry about this.
She didn't think about him again.
 
Steve: I kind of like the scenes between Don and Henry.
Even when both men, I think are trying to do the right thing, there's an inherent tension in the scene and this interaction between them is so terse.
 
Basically, Henry says the bare minimum to satisfy Don's curiosity and end the call.
And Don accepts that that's the dynamic and that he will get the bare minimum.
 
Jenna: But Henry does the right thing and he is honest about the news and he doesn't withhold it.
So he's not spiteful, which I think we can admire in him.
 
And then when Betty calls from the other room and she says, who was it? And Henry says, nobody.
Who is Don Draper?
Nobody.
 
Except this is Henry pretending Don is removed from their lives.
And he isn't entirely. He's still a ghost. Even in the new house in the new city. He's still echoing around in there.
 
Steve: Well, particularly in Betty's mind, right? Because we know Henry was a little surprised and perhaps off put by the fact that Betty reached out to Don.
 
I just wanted to jump back briefly to Roger's comment at the end of the scene with Roger and Don in the office where Roger asks when everything is going to get back to normal.
 
And it's just such a great comment because we can see how Roger is looking back to a prior period and lamenting how much things have changed and wanting to get back to that place.
And we know things are never going to go back to that place.
 
Jenna: When Megan comes in, Don tells her Betty is fine. And she says she's glad to hear it.
And she adds, Betty just needs to have something to call you about.
Did you think that was catty of Megan to say?
 
Steve: I think a little bit. And I think there's some legitimacy in Megan's comment because Betty is remarried, so she has her current husband.
So why is she reaching out to Don in her moment of emotional need?
 
But all that said,
I think Megan behaves properly here and says the right things in this moment.
 
Jenna: I agree. I think she's correct. I think Betty does want to keep a connection with Don and she is being a drama queen.
And maybe Megan calling that out in a single line is useful framing for Don.
 
 
And then we see Michael Ginsberg go home to an apartment with his father.
His father talks about Pete Fox dying. Pete Fox played for the Detroit Tigers before he was a right fielder for the Boston Red Sox from 1941 to 1945,
which, of course, was America's involvement in World War II.
 
Spoiler . . .
This seems relevant for what we find out later about Ginsberg's family.
What did you think of this relationship?
 
Steve: I was wondering what, if any, of this is autobiographical for Matthew Weiner,
his son is entering into a world that his father doesn't know and hasn't been in.
 
And his father is proud and happy that his son has gone there. But simultaneously, I think his son realizes that his father can't help him navigate this place and this journey.
And he's taking a step into a new world.
 
And it just, to me, again, emphasizes this generation gap between them.
And I love the sweetness of the father being so thrilled and laying his hands on Michael. It calls out that fib that Michael had in the office with Peggy, where he said, oh, nobody cares about me.
 
And it's clear that Michael is probably his father's world.
So that understatement by Michael to outsiders. The lies, the truth that lies at home. And this is a very modest home, I think in the commentary Matthew Weiner mentions. It's probably a Lower East Side apartment.
You can see the bathtub in the kitchen with a board on top of it to serve as a table.
 
You know, Michael is embarking on a level of success and potential that his father could never imagine.
 
Jenna: This reminds me of Peggy's relationship with her mother.
We've got a parent who's very proud, but too stifling.
We've got a parent who embraces a religion the child isn't especially interested in and talks about things and people the child isn't tied to.
 
Both Peggy and Michael seem to feel their parents don't really understand their work or their ideas.
But they also show care to their parents.
At the same time, they feel determined to get away from them or to become different from them.
 
 
The last scene shows Betty and Sally eating ice cream sundaes together.
Betty's being really pleasant with Sally,
but I guess maybe it's supposed to show her health scare hasn't changed her habits.
 
I mean, I feel like if you get good news after a doctor scare, an ice cream sundae and a half does not seem like an unrealistic celebration to me.
 
Steve: I was gonna say one ice cream sundae is plenty. You don't need to have the half. So when she starts having the leftover sundae that Sally didn't eat,
I'm thinking, okay, this is getting back to your own bad choices here, Betty. You don't need those calories.
 
Jenna: But isn't it judgy of the writers to decide that for her? I don't know. I didn't love it. I, like, that's her whole story is she's this unhappy housewife and she eats too much?
 
And aren't we judgy of her for it? Like, how many of us have that problem? And isn't the worst sin Betty commits that she's unkind to her kids and unresponsive to her kind husband than the fact that she's eating too much?
Like, if we're going to focus on her sins, this seems like the wrong one.
 
Steve: Well, I didn't feel like this was about that as any especially important sin.
To me, it was just emphasizing the point that the roots of her unhappiness are not going to be solved by eating what's left of Sally's sundae.
 
So I think we have Betty here falling back into this behavior that is not given her happiness, won't give her happiness.
 
You're not in a good place and it doesn't seem like you are willing to take advantage. It may be in response to a benign tumor she has the opposite of I'm going to make some changes and embark on a better life here and take advantage of this gift of time that, you know, I've been granted.
And I guess I feel disappointed in the character.
 
 
Jenna: The closing song is I am Sixteen Going on Seventeen, which of course is Liesl's song from The Sound of Music.
 
Apparently from the commentary, it's supposed to reference Betty's childishness that she's not growing up or facing things.
 
But I think it's better suited to the whole culture changing,
this time capsule where characters are seeking out familiar old things at the same time they're reaching for new things; the idea that you can embrace Frank Sinatra and the Rolling Stones in the same year.
 
Steve: Maybe it's about Roger Sterling, because he doesn't seem to be embracing change or doing anything different. He's just looking backwards in the rearview mirror and longing for the way things used to be.
 
Jenna: So an okay episode of Mad Men is still really good TV,
but I'm a lot more excited to see the episodes coming later in the season than to rewatch this one, I think. How about you?
 
Steve: I'm not down on this one, but I don't think it's one of my favorite episodes either.
So again, I love the payoff from all the themes and plots that are set up in the early parts of the season.
So I feel like I've got patience to say, okay, go ahead and tee everything up and then we'll start to have the big payoff episodes on the back nine.
 
Jenna: Agree.
 
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Steve: That's it for this episode of All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, MadMenCtoZ.com to vote for your favorite Sterling Lines and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
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Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.