Mad Men C to Z S4E9 The Beautiful Girls Podcast Transcript

This is the full, human-edited transcript for our podcast discussion of Mad Men's Season 4, Episode 9, The Beautiful Girls. You can listen to the episode here, or you can listen to it here on Spotify. Visit our episode page for more details and extras about The Beautiful Girls.

Mad Men C to Z S4E9 The Beautiful Girls Transcript
 
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
 
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each rewatch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season. Let's get started with Mad Men, C to Z.
 
Jenna: Today, we're talking about season four, episode nine, The Beautiful Girls.
This episode was written by Dahvi Waller and Matthew Weiner, and directed by Michael Uppendahl.
The scene opens with a couple of wrapped takeout sandwiches and two soda bottles on an end table, and we can hear Don and Faye from the bedroom.
 
This seems like a really happy and healthy relationship for him.
He's not married and cheating, he isn't drunk, and he's not taking advantage of someone at the last minute or with somebody he doesn't respect.
Although he's not working.
 

Steve: He's definitely not working. They do seem to be enjoying each other's company, and they both seem very satisfied.
 
Jenna: It seems pretty fun and well matched between them in a way we haven't seen since maybe Don and Betty were together in Rome.
There you could see Betty's value to Don's work life.
 
But here you can see a different value with Faye. She's smart, she knows the clients and what it's like at work every day,
but just when you think Don might be in a healthy place, he asks her about her meeting that afternoon, and Faye won't tell him, but he keeps pushing.
 
She refers to a Chinese wall, which is related to the ethical partitioning of sensitive information, and you'd think Don would respect her for not leaking any information.
I don't like that he tries to manipulate her like this.
 
Steve: It's not a great look for Don, but I think Faye comes across as quite professional in that she is maintaining the confidentiality.
 
Jenna: Don gets up and leaves first. He trusts Faye to lock up and take her time, and she seems very flattered by his trust in her.
And he's got this line where he goes, “I'm taking everything interesting with me,” and he zips up his pants.
And it's a little bit flirty and a little eye rolling at the same time,
and they seem on equal footing, which is rare for Don lately.
 
He needs somebody smart enough to keep up, somebody who's willing to call him on his bs, which is considerable,
and somebody who has a life outside of him. So I feel optimistic about their relationship at this point.
 
Steve: And continuing on from the prior episode where we saw, you know, evidence of Don trying to clean himself up and lay off the booze, you do have a sense of progress and a positive direction for him, since he has been in a bit of a spiral for much of the first half this season.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, Roger is on the phone explaining to somebody why his book is better than Ogilvy's.
 
When informed that his wife is on the phone, Roger doesn't take the call, saying she can call him from the Hamptons. So we know Jane is on her way out of town, and it's not important to Roger to talk to her.
So it seems like all of that flutter about how in love he was and how wonderful his whole marriage was, that seems to have faded considerably.
 
Steve: Yeah, there doesn't seem to be this smitten in love Roger Sterling reality that he was supposedly seeking with this marriage and, you know, leaving Mona.
 
I do love hearing Roger trying to sell his book, you know, talking about the mystery, the intrigue, the romance.
And then in a sort of sly critique of Ogilvy's book, he says, you know, I have examples of how to sell things, which, you know, Ogilvy's book did not include, really.
 
 
Jenna: And in contrast to Jane, when Joan walks in, she gets Roger's full attention.
She has some business notes for him, but he asks what she's doing this afternoon and tries to flirt.
She's got no time for him, and she seems extra cold.
 
And when she leaves, Caroline, Roger's secretary, is protective, and she scolds Roger a bit because Greg got called up and he'll be going to Vietnam after basic training.
Roger reads the gravity of that, and it's interesting how we get this important information in a scene without Joan or Greg, even though it affects them the most.
 
And I think the audience hears Greg is going to Vietnam,
and most of us are maybe not overly sad for him, but I love that Joan really is.
 
As much as her marriage is a mess,
it's complicated by the fact that she loves him.
She cares for him, she worries about his safety even though he raped her, he belittles her, he doesn't make good decisions.
That complexity doesn't make her stupid or heroic. It's very human.
 
Steve: It's also interesting to see Roger's reaction to the news, because I see a certain duality in it. I think I see an honest, human reaction of, oh, you know, that's. That's not good.
Joan's husband is going off to Vietnam and could potentially be in harm's way. But simultaneously, maybe I'm reading into it, but I feel like I see a little sparkle in Roger's eye with the idea of the cat’s away, and perhaps the mouse will be willing to play.
 
 
Jenna: Peggy meets Don as he walks in after his non lunch.
And even though she has pressing work questions, he says he's going to have a nap first. She can wait an hour.
 
And Ms. Blankenship gets this great line here. She tells Peggy,
it's a business of sadists and masochists and you know which one you are.
Do you see Peggy as a glutton for punishment, given that she stays working for Don?
 
Steve: I don't think I do. I mean, there are definitely aspects she has to put up with,
but I think that's true of every relationship.
I guess I have faith in Peggy to make that assessment of, you know, the benefits outweigh the costs and there's things to be gained here.
 
You know, she's advocated for herself, she stood up for herself.
She's achieved things here that a lot of people didn't even imagine someone like her could achieve.
So, yeah, I love the joke by Ms. Blankenship,
but I'm not sure that Peggy is a sadist or a masochist.
 
Jenna: I think she really enjoys being special and being good at something, and that there's a unique satisfaction in pleasing somebody who is so hard to please.
So I was leaning yes on that, but I think I like your answer better.
 
 
Steve: I love when Peggy comes back to the office and tells Stan that they're on at 4 pm after Don has his nap. Because you can tell from Stan's reaction that he's hoping to perhaps leave work early.
 
 
Jenna: And Peggy's friend Joyce shows up to invite her for drinks after work.
And they have this funny nod that they're meeting downtown and Stan is joking with them about being lesbians together. And he starts humming Petula Clark's Downtown song to Peggy.
And that's the same song Elisabeth Moss's character sings to calm down in Girl Interrupted.
 
Petula Clark's song was released in 1964 and the lyrics include the lines,
“you may find somebody kind to help and understand you.” So we hope that's in store for Peggy, I think.
 
And we get a truth call out in this scene when Stan tells Joyce,
“I just hope you know you can never do what a man can do.”
And Joyce agrees, “that's true.”
And then she licks Peggy's face and Peggy giggles. I mean, if this were a man doing that, it would feel really gross.
But since they're friends and Peggy doesn't mind, I guess all's fair.
I think it's meant to put Stan in his place. And it seems to.
 
Steve: Yeah, it is kind of funny to see, you know, Joyce flirting with Peggy. And it's fun to sort of go back at Stan because I think he thinks he's a little more clever than he is, a little more edgy.
 
Jenna: Don finally comes out of his office after his nap. And he gets a message in not so subtle code from Faye. And it makes him smile.
It's nice seeing him happy.
 
 
Steve: The next scene takes us to the meetup between Joyce and Peggy.
And guess who Joyce has brought to the bar.
So clearly Abe has engineered this so that he can have another chance to talk with Peggy.
 
Jenna: You know, I got the sense that Joyce was engineering it more than Abe. I obviously Abe was in on it, but I felt like Joyce was kind of trying to help out her friend Abe by getting him another meetup with her friend Peggy.
 
I also thought it was interesting that a different Petula Clark song is playing in the bar.
It's one called I Know a Place.
It has lines like a place where you can leave work behind you. It's got an atmosphere all its own.
 
But we know Peggy, like Don, rarely does leave her work behind completely,
even if she is meeting new people. And she's open to ideas outside of advertising,
I think.
 
When Abe and Peggy kissed in the closet, Peggy was dating Mark. But she does look pleased to see Abe, even though she didn't know he was going to be there.
He tries to order a drink and the bartender ignores him.
Peggy puts the order in and gets it.
So she's taken more seriously outside of work and these other different contexts.
 
It seems like Abe doesn't need to come along and rescue her from anything or show her the ropes.
But she's also not pretending to be less than she is or too demure to get a drink order in. I mean, this seems good for Peggy.
 
If we review, we've got Pete, Duck, Mark, and in a different way, Father Gill.
All these men were trying to lead Peggy to particular paths. And they thought that they knew better.
 
I mean, I think the one night hamburger guy and her mom's truck driver guy were both cases where Peggy was pretending to be someone she isn't.
So if Peggy can be real and Abe can like who she is,
that seems pretty promising.
 
Peggy and Don both in happy, healthy relationships? It's so optimistic right now.
 
Steve: Well, and Abe quickly confesses that this whole meetup was his idea and that he had been thinking about her and wanted to stop by her office.
So he, he basically comes out and says, you know, he meant this attention to be flattering to her.
And I think Peggy takes it that way. She is flattered to get some attention from him.
 
 
Jenna: Speaking of flattering, Joan is home at her apartment that night, and when she answers the door, she receives an in home massage and mani / pedi service from a friend.
It's really thoughtful for her to be pampered a little bit.
And even though they won't say who sent the gift, she has to know this is the kind of thing Roger would do.
 
Steve: It seems like a genuinely nice gift, right, because Roger's not there.
So it, it really is something focused on Joan and her wellness.
It's coming from Roger. I guess we'll see what his expectations are on the other side.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the bar, Abe is lecturing Peggy about some political thoughts. He's anti corporation, warning about revolution.
And Peggy tries to pull it back to the personal.
 
They're both from Brooklyn. And she says, honestly, one more drink and he'll hear her accent start to come out.
And I love that line. It's a great detail of another code switching thing she does at work to try to shed her home accent and blend in with the Manhattan crowd.
It's something that Don does too.
 
Steve: Abe does seem very politically active, and he wants to talk about Fillmore Auto Parts.
Peggy seems completely oblivious. It doesn't seem like this is something that Peggy has thought about or questioned.
 
And she, I think, reacts reflexively and a bit defensively to say, well, that, that can't be true because she hasn't heard about that. And the people seem nice when they come in the office.
 
But all of this, I think, seems to demonstrate how politically naive Peggy is. Her world is advertising, and she's, at least to this point, not really given a lot of thought to the implications of who the advertising is for and what kind of world this is taking place in.
 
And for someone like Abe, he really feels it's his job now to beat that drum and enlighten Peg and awaken her politically.
He starts talking over Peggy, almost dictating to Peggy.
 
Jenna: Yes, we get our first truth call out in this scene when Peggy says, oh, I don't think that's true. And Abe insists, no, the strike is true.
 
Peggy's never thought about a particular company's business practices before, outside of how she could use it to sell something.
And when Abe says, oh, I'm sure they're perfectly nice for racists, he gets to the heart of it.
 
But Peggy doesn't want to see that at all. She explains, oh, we don't judge people. We try to help them out of these situations.
 
And Abe isn't buying it, to the extent even they talk about Goldwater, and Peggy says, oh, well, of course she didn't vote for him, but she would have loved to have gotten that campaign.
So she doesn't have Roger's issue from The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. It feels like she will try to sell anything for any client.
Did you have judgment about her for that?
 
Steve: You know, my judgment is just that she's not politically aware.
And I think Abe, in fact, mirrors that obliviousness when it comes to sexism, because, you know, she brings up the notion about how women are treated and challenges she's faced. And we can see that Abe reciprocates her obliviousness when it comes to that issue.
 
And, you know, he makes the passing remark about, oh, you know, how silly, you know, like a civil rights march for women, as if that's warranted, necessary would change anything.
 
And it's funny to see it in this context, especially, you know, looking back decades at this mentality. So it's interesting the way they're talking across each other in many ways, both feeling a bit defensive in terms of what the other one's suggesting.
 
And then simultaneously, I think, and hopefully, both starting to question a little bit their lack of awareness of what the other one is bringing up and putting on the table here.
 
Jenna: Yes, in this scene where Abe is going on about civil rights being an inequality the world should attend to.
Peggy agrees, but she does start talking about prejudice against women.
 
And anytime there's an ism, it's not cool to make it a contest. So I wish Peggy had more concern about the civil rights movement.
Her attitude is more, well, I've got it bad too, so they can fight like I did.
 
But of course, that diminishes the real struggle of the civil rights movement.
She and Abe are both failing to think about black women in particular, who are dealing with arguably greater hardships due to racism and sexism.
So this narrative of other people should just try harder, that doesn't really take everything into account.
 
Steve: I also think they're, you know, the personal lens each one is bringing to this conversation is really relevant as well. Peggy is working in advertising, so her entire job and livelihood is tied in with this world of advertising.
 
So in each case, you know, I feel sympathetic to Abe throwing rocks at advertising and saying, you know, how can you be oblivious to advertising's role in this system and machine where there's this injustice and this movement for civil rights.
 
But then simultaneously, Abe's got the freedom and liberty, and really the stakes aren't all that high. You know, it's almost like a project or a hobby for him to agitate and denounce.
 
All that to say, I really like the writing here because I think there are truths and perspectives that are - they feel very genuine to me and they feel very typical and representative of the challenges we face.
 
I also like the idea of who knows if what Abe said is put a crack into Peggy's view of advertising at this point, but he's definitely knocking on the shelf. And the question is, I guess, where does that lead?
 
Jenna: Abe is a journalist, so his job, I think, is to try to pull back the curtain. And he definitely has a lot of zeal to taking down the man and the system and society.
And you can see that he really lives and breathes his job with the passion that Peggy has for her job as well.
 
Steve: Yeah, I'm not. I'm not questioning Abe's passion here,
but if your job is to agitate and write stories about injustice and the civil rights movement and the rest, there's nothing at stake here for him personally.
 
Peggy has her livelihood tied up in this.
And her opportunities or potential implications of embracing the civil rights movement could be a lot more perilous to her professional career than Abe's, which his is practically built upon it.
 
Jenna: While I'm not super impressed by Peggy's take and her dismissiveness of the civil rights concerns,
at the same time, she's telling Abe something really important that she doesn't get to say in the office. It just is.
 
She talks about how meetings take place over golf and tennis or at clubs where she isn't invited.
So no matter how talented she is, she still faces exclusion at work.
And I hate Abe for not getting that.
 
But I also appreciate this about his character,
that here is this die hard campaigner for equality who's unable to muster any empathy for female inequality.
 
And I don't think Peggy wants his pity or for anybody to save her.
But I do think it would be such a relief for her to get to talk about the injustice of what she faces at work.
And it's worse that Abe doesn't get it.
 
We see Greg clueless with Joan about her job, and Mark was clueless about Peggy,
but Abe is so close to being somebody who could understand and support her,
yet he doesn't.
 
Steve: In the midst of him simultaneously calling her out for not being aware of the injustice.
So, yeah, I think this gets under Peggy's skin, and how Abe wanted to impress her and dazzle her with his knowledge and his passion.
It's gone completely sideways now. And I think she's getting progressively more hostile and frustrated with him at this point.
 
Jenna: I like that Abe defends himself by saying, I'm not criticizing you. This is discourse.
And there are so many people out there like Abe who love to argue.
And for them, it's this fun exercise.
 
And then the person they're talking to is like, yeah, this is really unpleasant, and I want out. And then the arguer is so surprised.
So as Peggy goes, he's really surprised she's not enjoying this, and he's also genuinely disappointed to see her leave.
 
Steve: Abe knows he's blown it. And by the time he realizes that and sort of emerges from his presentation to sort of see where his audience is, and at this point, Peggy's getting up to leave.
 
You can see the regret on Abe's face. So I really like the acting in that scene there because, you know, that's not how he wanted this evening to end.
 
Jenna: I like that Abe is smart and has his own interests, and I like that he challenges Peggy's ideas, too.
But it remains to be seen whether he respects her or if he wants to control her.
What do you think of Abe as a partner for Peggy?
 
Steve: I'd suspect I'm similar to you in that. That he seems to have some real qualities and aspects that I think would be a good fit. And I'm wanting them to learn more about each other and get closer.
 
But this has been a pretty rough conversation between the two of them, and it feels like they've just been bashing their heads against each other here. So it makes me kind of pull back and think, okay, gosh, maybe if they can't get around this,
then there's no future there.
 
 
Jenna: The next day, Bert is sitting on a couch asking Ms. Blankenship for her help with a crossword clue.
In the commentary, Matt Weiner and Dahvi Waller talk about how doing this together is such an intimate act, which is funny, given they're not even looking at each other.
 
Don shows up, and Ms. Blankenship offers the comment that Dr. Miller is pushy.
She's an older, single woman who editorializes unapologetically,
but she thinks Faye is pushy.
 
Steve: Ms. Blankenship's correct. Faye is pushy. And I guess the question is, who's got a problem with that?
 
Jenna: We should mention Randi Heller was nominated for an Emmy as Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama for this role of Ms. Blankenship.
She has very few lines, but it's definitely a memorable turn.
 
Steve: Yeah, I really enjoy her time on screen and all her lines.
 
 
Jenna: Joan makes her way to Roger's office to thank him for the massage service.
She brought him some bear claws to say thank you, but quickly, he's flirtatious, he wants to go out to dinner, and she immediately throws her guard up.
Do you think Roger's wrong to ask her out for dinner here?
 
Steve: I wouldn't use the word wrong, but it does seem to reinforce this notion that Roger is angling for something.
 
Jenna: I think Roger would be happy if something happened between them, but I'm not sure he's necessarily angling for that here.
I think he's always flirtatious with Joan, just automatically,
and that he genuinely likes her and he wants to spend some time with her.
 
At the same time, I get why Joan is disappointed with him. She wanted him to do something thoughtful, not fish for favors.
 
Later in this episode, Don tells the character, I offered you money, and I said thank you, meaning I did my due diligence here. Joan, she brought him bear claws. She said thank you to Roger.
She doesn't want to owe him anything else.
 
Steve: I also like the line where Roger says that Caroline won't let him have the bear claws because she's controlling his diet.
 
 
Jenna: Across the office, Abe shows up at SCDP with something he wrote for Peggy called Nuremberg on Madison Avenue.
She hesitates to take it to read, but she also smiles as she walks away.
I think writing could be her love language. And Abe wrote this for her, so you think it might be a pretty romantic gesture.
 
Steve: And he's dressed up, right? He's got a tie on, and he wants her to read it right this moment. And, you know, she tries to beg off, and he says, well, no, no. I'll go over here and sit and wait for you to read it. So, you know, he's very insistent, and I think that level of insistence has got to be flattering to Peggy.
 
 
Jenna: In the meeting with Fillmore Auto Parts, Faye, Don, and Ken are meeting with the brothers who run the company.
They allude to the boycott Abe told Peggy about.
 
And there's also an issue about men who work with their hands, versus suburban office men who aren't handy but want to think of themselves that way.
And as much as we talk about how the women are boxed into certain roles and trade offs on this show, of course, this is a thing for men, too.
 
Steve: And we know from the conversation with Abe and Peggy that Fillmore Auto Parts is this Southern client that has got this issue of how they're employing African Americans.
It's happening in the midst of the civil rights movement, so this is being drawn into public awareness.
 
Jenna: In the middle of this discussion about different types of men,
we see Ken pushing back on Don for the first time as they are talking about the ad strategy.
Don says he can do where the pros go or everyone's welcome, not both things.
 
And this is a message, I think, that applies a lot to the women in the episode, but also to the men.
 
It's most obviously in the idea that you can be a career woman or a nurturing mother,
but not both.
And we see that in Ms. Blankenship, in Peggy, and in Faye.
 
And Ken argues back, sure, you can. You can connect the strategies into one. You can have it all.
And Sally and Joan in this episode are specifically trying to make that happen,
that Sally can be more adult and escape to live with her father, and Joan can keep herself together at work and ignore what's wrong in her marriage.
 
Except Don knows how hard it is to try to be two different things at once.
So I love that connection here between the ad campaign and what's going on with everybody.
 
Steve: And we don't get any follow up from Don with Ken about disagreeing on the creative campaign.
But just given his track record, we know that Ken has crossed a red line here as far as Don Draper is concerned.
And account men shouldn't be sticking their noses in to the campaign,
especially when Don is trying to work the client to distill things down to a single point of focus so they can do the advertising around that.
 
Jenna: Don doesn't really have the opportunity to take Ken down because he's called into the reception area, where he's greeted by a woman who found Sally on the train.
 
He wasn't expecting her and he's not happy to see her.
But first he has to deal with the stranger who brought her in, who says men never know what's going on.
Don is not going to stand here for a lecture.
 
This is where he says, “I offered you money and I said thank you.”  And that's pretty much what he's got to give to this woman.
I mean, she's judgy and she's right about it not being safe for Sally to be on the train by herself.
 
Steve: Agreed. But it seems like she's enjoying the judginess a little too much. She doesn't know anything about the situation,
but she sees fit to pronounce upon clueless Don Draper there in the office.
 
So Don is cordial and behaves a proper way. But Ms. Vivian Winters can climb down off her high horse anytime.
 
Jenna: So Don sends Sally to go sit in his office past Ms. Blankenship, who offers, “she looks so chubby in the pictures.”
Helpful, helpful. And Don asks her to get Betty on the phone.
 
Sally does look really pretty and dressed up today, and she explains to Don she wanted to see him without waiting for two weekends.
Ms. Blankenship buzzes that Mrs. Francis is on the line,
and that's her last line in the show.
 
Steve: I don't know, seeing Sally here and that she's sort of run away in this very childish way, I think my expectation for her behavior in this episode is that she is going to be this passive, childish person in this adult world.
 
And it's rather striking to me that as Don interacts with Sally and then various other characters throughout the episode,
Sally's got her back up and Sally's putting her foot down for what she wants to advocate for, and she's not suffering any fools.
 
It's a much more adult look and behavior out of Sally than I think we've gotten from her in the series to this point.
 
Jenna: And it's a standout episode for Kiernan Shipka's acting, too. She does a lot of really good work in this episode.
 
Steve: Yeah. I have to say, I'm not a fan of child actors for the most part, but I think she just kills it in this episode and does such a great job and really sells me on this sort of awkward preteen age where she's smart and starting to become aware of the adult world and how it works, but she doesn't have the nuances.
 
And she struggles because she kind of goes too hard in certain circumstances,
and then, you know, the adults bamboozle her or run her over and others.
Yeah, I think she's a standout.
 
Jenna: On the phone with Betty, Don is upset.
If he were more patient, I think Betty would have a different response.
But when he's rude, Betty refuses to come pick Sally up.
Betty says she'll be in the city tomorrow night, and Don can look after Sally until then.
 
And it's definitely not a team approach to parenting,
but I do understand how Betty feels like she carries a lot of the unfun parts of being a parent.
And then Don is the superstar who shows up for small amounts of time and mostly gets the fun parts.
 
So I wish Betty were kinder to Sally and more supportive to her. And I wish that both her parents didn't treat her like a burden who's in the way of their real lives.
But at the same time,
I do kind of get where Betty's coming from here.
Even if I would never make this decision myself to just say, okay, do you think it's so easy? Good luck. Have fun with that.
 
Steve: I like this interaction between Don and Betty because in some ways, I think it mirrors the interaction between Don and Sally.
Betty's not afraid of Don, and Betty's not going to take any crap from Don. And I think when Don is talking to her, he wants to be the aggressor and assert that, you know, hey, you know, Sally's supposed to be with you.
 
You're responsible. How the heck is she here in the city? You know, he's on the offensive.
Betty shuts that down pretty quickly.
And when they hit that impasse or stalemate, because it doesn't seem like Don has a plan B to collaborate or, you know, figure this thing out together,
then Betty just throws it back in his yard and says, well, I guess you'll deal with it until I get around to coming to get her.
 
And later in the episode, as you know, we see Sally dealing with Don. I get a similar dynamic there where it doesn't appear that Sally is at all intimidated by Don.
She's going to work her father over in the ways that she knows how to in the hopes of getting what she wants. And it's just such an interesting contrast to so many of the people at work,
where I think a lot of people do fear Don Draper and are very wary of crossing him.
 
To see both his ex wife and his daughter sticking their finger in his chest,
it's interesting.
 
Jenna: So now Don insists that Sally stay in his office.
He says, “don't move and don't touch anything.”
And that's such a huge change from today, when a kid would be on an iPad or a parent's phone or at least have a book, and Sally is supposed to sit in the office and keep herself entertained for however long.
 
On his way out of his office,
Don tells Ms. Blankenship to make sure Sally doesn't leave the room.
But Ms. Blankenship doesn't answer him, and the phone keeps ringing.
I definitely didn't notice that on my first watch.
 
Steve: No. And I didn't notice it on the rewatch, so shame on me.
 
 
We cut back to Abe and Peggy, and Peggy's now, apparently read the article,
and Peggy is incredulous.
She starts off by asking Abe if he's kidding. She says she'll lose her job if he publishes this. And then she says, look, I'm not a political person.
 
And Abe is coming at this from an entirely opposite direction. You know, this is his political passion.
And he sees it as this act of romantic love towards Peggy. He's going to call out, you know, the industry where she works, the company where she works,
and, you know, isn't she going to be awed and impressed by both his passion, his intelligence, and his dedication to the cause?
 
Jenna: It seems to me Abe does take Peggy seriously, but he also wants her to be who he wants her to be,
just as Roger wants Joan to be, or Don wants Faye to be.
And when Abe says to Peggy, you're better than this, meaning the excesses and the social crimes of businesses,
he's attacking something really important to her, which is her work and her career aspirations.
 
But he's right.
When she says, I'm not a political person,
she means she's not thinking about politics. She's focused on her life and her work, which is her art to her.
 
And his response is that everyone is political, and that not choosing to think about the consequences is a political choice in and of itself. And that's correct.
 
Steve: And we don't get any of the details of what he actually wrote, but just judging by the title, you know, the Nuremberg trials after World War II were where the victorious Allies tried primarily Nazis from the defeated Nazi German regime.
 
And at Nuremberg, a lot of the excuses for many of the horrible things that were perpetrated were basically done under the excuse of, well, I was just following orders. So it wasn't my idea.
It wasn't me trying to push this. I was just a cog in a machine doing what I was told. And it turns out what I was told was really awful.
And I thus committed atrocities.
 
So I'm going to assume that Abe's article is somewhere along those lines.
The advertising firms being cogs in the machine, following the orders of their clients, who are the ones who are discriminating and not hiring people or mistreating people, et cetera.
 
I think Peggy rightfully sees it as cutting right to the foundations of the entire industry to say, if you are agnostic about the behavior of your clients and it's just about getting them, you know, a new ad campaign to sell more widgets,
that may be a pretty morally bankrupt position to hold.
 
And here in 1965, given all the other things and forces that are going around in society,
Abe is thrusting this forward into the light in a way that Peggy, who's managed to avoid looking at it until now, is seeing it, you know, fully lit up and starting to see the implications of it.
 
Jenna: And, of course, she finds that offensive,
not just because it brings up a lot of uncomfortable questions for herself, but because her image and Don's image of himself as a creative person are that they are breaking the mold of what it means to be an advertiser, that they are creating art, in fact.
 
They are not cogs in a machine. They are not following orders. They are generating these beautiful, striking images that make people feel something real, and that that's powerful and meaningful.
 
So to say you're just part of a system in a machine is just, I think, abhorrent to her.
Outside of all the other things that he's questioning about.
 
Steve: Well, I think it's even more divergent than that. I think Abe is saying, oh, you. You, Peggy, are a victim in this scene because you are being forced to work with racists and support the racists.
 
And I don't think that Peggy has come to that conclusion. So I think there's also a disconnect where Abe thinks he's doing her a favor,
and all she can see is the threat that this poses.
 
And even as in, I think in the back of her mind, she's starting to question some of the assumptions that she'd been operating on.
So, you know, this political awakening of Peggy Olson is happening simultaneous to her seeing her own neck being in grievous peril with Abe the firebrand launching this article, potentially.
 
Jenna: Yes. He has that line where he says, you're not a priest, you're a congregant.
So that tracks with what you're saying about that she's a follower.
 
And I get that he's ranting and his views are extreme to Peggy,
but I still like him better than her previous partners. He recognizes her intelligence.
He's challenging her belief system,
and it feels like they could have an equal partnership at some point.
 
Except he isn't necessarily seeing the real person standing in front of him any more than Pete or Duck or Mark did.
He's still forcing something on her that she's not necessarily carrying or expressing.
 
Steve: And Peggy is very clear about practically what she wants to happen here.
She tells him, you know, you can't publish this.
She wants his word that he'll destroy that article,
and she makes it very clear that this is non negotiable.
 
And I think that's the moment where almost like a dose of cold water to the face,
Abe realizes that that's her line and her limit and she won't cross it. And you can almost see him deflate as he realizes he hasn't impressed her or charmed her with this.
He's inspired a completely defensive reaction from her, at least in the short term.
 
 
Jenna: On her way back to her office,
Peggy notices something is off with Ms. Blankenship.
When she touches her on the shoulder, she realizes Ms. Blankenship has died at her desk.
 
Peggy and Sally never get scenes together. I think the only other one was in the first season when Betty showed up with the kids for their family pictures.
But they have this exchange of two short lines that are so comic, in spite of what's just happened.
 
Peggy's first instinct is to open the door to talk to Don about what's going on.
But there's Sally sitting at his desk instead.
So Peggy looks at her and commands,
“Do not come out of there!”
 
And Sally's really indignant because she's not doing anything wrong. So she just goes, “I know!” and I love that so much.
 
With a theme in this episode about who is maternal or not maternal enough, their mutual frustration here is the most amazing humor.
 
In any other show, it would be this Stooges Circus scenario to hide Ms.
Blankenship from Sally or this soft strings cue would play her goodbye. And instead we get this joke. It's fantastic.
 
 
Steve: Back in the meeting with Fillmore Auto Parts,
Megan interrupts the meeting to call Don out to deal with the Ms. Blankenship situation.
Don has a very human reaction of shock and surprise at the tragedy that's taken place at the desk.
 
But he’s simultaneously got a conference room full of clients who are in the midst of, you know, some pretty heavy negotiations.
So I think we get this comedic vibe here of him trying to balance the two requirements.
 
Jenna: And again, Joan is the person who knows exactly what to do. She knows to call the coroner. She advises Megan to “get a man” and cover her with an afghan. There's one in Mr. Crane's office.
 
So she says, I'll attend to this. And Don believes her.
She's got this under control.
 
So he heads back into this meeting, where Ken is charming the Fillmore brothers.
And behind the clients, through the glass, we can see Joan and Pete wheeling Ms. Blankenship in an office chair down the hallway, as Harry complains about the use of the afghan his mother made for him.
 
Steve: And it's probably some of the best physical comedy we've seen in Mad Men to this point, because we're looking through the glass, you know, and the clients have their back to it, so they can't see it.
 
You know, we haven't had much of Pete Campbell lately, so it's kind of fun as he is the man who's called in to provide the muscle to help wheel this body down the hallway.
 
Jenna: How perfect is it that the slogan they come up with is Fillmore Auto Parts: for the mechanic in every man?
And here we are watching so many of the men in this episode struggling to fix things.
 
We see Abe crafting this manifesto for Peggy that misses the mark, and Don asking Faye to fix his daughter situation,
and Pete and Harry awkwardly handling Ms. Blankenship.
These mechanics aren't wielding their tools very effectively here.
 
Steve: And it's interesting as well that what the client has signed off on here is essentially what Ken was proposing and contradicts what Don said. You know, was it possible that there's a lack of strategy?
 
So I think that's also a nice nod toward the client is king. And regardless of what the great Don Draper pronounces,
if the clients are sold on something and good with it, then that's the work is done and they go from there.
 
 
Jenna: In the next scene, Don asks Faye to take Sally to his apartment and stay with her.
Ken's showing the clients out the other side of the office.
Everybody is shocked at the loss of Ms. Blankenship.
Don has to deal with Sally, so he's asking Faye to look after her. What did you think of that request?
 
Steve: It doesn't surprise me because I think Don is a bit of a drowning man here, so he's going to ask literally anyone to take Sally.
 
And the fact that Faye knows where his apartment is and they have this relationship going on, you know, makes her a convenient choice.
I don't think it's an especially fair request to Faye because, after all, they are in a professional context here right now.
 
I did enjoy when Faye introduces herself to Sally in a very sort of, you know, adult talking to a childlike way.
And Sally just kind of throws it right back at her to say, you know, she knows who she is.
 
Jenna: I don't see any reason Don couldn't take Sally home instead of asking Faye to do it here.
And because Don means something to Faye, Sally does, too.
 
And Faye wants to do this the right way. She doesn't want to have it sprung upon her without warning. So it's completely unfair of him.
 
And I want to talk about this scene with Faye and how badly she handles Sally.
I'm coming up on almost 30 years of working with students in my career, and even though Faye is a rather extreme example,
there are absolutely adults who have no clue how to talk to kids.
They ask them how school is going, and then they run out of things to say.
 
And I think Faye would be better if she talked to Sally without Don in the room, but because she feels like it's a performance and she really wants it to go well in front of him, when she greets Sally, she's so wooden and fake.
 
Faye doesn't have a genuine interest in Sally. She just wants to look like she's doing it right. And that's the mistake.
 
At the same time, Faye is a much more interesting character because she's so bad at this.
Just like there are people who expect Don Draper to know how to use tools because he's a man,
people expect Faye to know how to care for kids because she's a woman.
 
And Betty's a woman, and she's not great with kids in a completely different, wrong way.
And while it's really tragic for the fictional kids in this show, it's so much more interesting than the hundreds of perfect parents we see on sitcoms through the decades. You know, where on a very special episode of Blossom, nobody ever swears or gets impatient or has any reaction other than finding kids adorable.
 
So I like this moment where Faye is really bad at this.
Even though she wants it to go really well.
 
Steve: It feels very genuine to me. And I agree.
There's this whole spectrum of people who are very good with children and people who are terrible, and they're not getting better or worse at it. They're just the way they are.
 
And for all the high powered Faye we see in the office and what a great professional it is and what a great consultant and how she leads these groups, she is not in a place of comfort or confidence dealing with Sally Draper.
 
 
Jenna: As they're heading out of the office,
Bert insists Ms. Blankenship be sent to an upscale funeral home. And he says he'll call her niece.
And I appreciate that. The show plays the afghan and the surprise of Ms. Blankenship's death for comedy, and then at the same time, they come around to something real and sad as we see Roger and Bert's reactions to losing her.
 
Steve: and we can see how much it impacts Roger.
And I think we also see reflected in this, you know, another person from Roger's life is gone, and passed out of it.
 
And it's emphasizing to him that he is on the back nine of life now,
and, you know, people are fading away around him. And I think it really - it makes him feel sad and old to witness this.
 
Jenna: Joan knows this about him. She follows Roger to his office,
and he is a little more upset than you would expect.
He says he doesn't want to die in this office, and he almost did, twice.
I appreciate that for all her irritation with Roger,
Joan shows up for him in this moment.
 
I also appreciate that for all his sadness, Roger is really darkly funny in this scene.
He says, if it looks like I'm going, open a window. I'd rather flatten a cabin instead of die in the office.
 
Steve: Well, and what does he - he says he's going to go to his favorite restaurant and drink some cyanide.
 
Jenna: And he says, poor Ida. She died like she lived: surrounded by the people she answered phones for. And Joan's trying not to laugh.
 
Steve: And ultimately, Roger succeeds in getting Joan to go on a sympathy dinner with him. So getting the massage didn't manage to get her to accept his dinner invitation. But he's not taking no for an answer here.
 
 
Jenna: When Don gets home, Sally opens the door and things are calm.
Faye opts not to stay for dinner with them,
and Sally is thrilled with how things are working out.
She asks if they can order pizza. She promises not to do this again.
 
And she curls up on the couch, very satisfied, no doubt happy to be away from her mother.
She got the results she was wanting. She got some quality time with her dad.
 
Steve: Yeah, I don't get any sense of sadness or regret on Sally's part.
 
 
Jenna: We see Joan and Roger at a diner they used to go to. It's out of the way so that nobody will see them. And Roger likes the cheesecake here.
 
We know Joan is lonely. They touched on that in the last episode.
But she also had an issue with Peggy when she fired Joey in the last episode.
And I wonder if Joan allows this dinner with Roger because it lets her flex her power again a little bit.
 
I mean, sure, Roger is good company.
Hanging out with him might also give her some inside information or at the very least, let her feel like she's still attractive.
And maybe his attention gives her a little validation when she needs some.
 
Steve: It seems their guards are down a little bit, and they reveal some things. You know, Joan admits in response to Roger's question that Greg didn't consult with her before enlisting and then eventually running off to Vietnam.
 
And Joan points out that Roger doesn't exactly consult with Jane about things either. But it's not like a hard elbow or a shot at Roger. It just feels more like Joan's made a confession and making an observation of a similarity that Roger has in his own relationship.
 
Jenna: And Roger's very willing to flatter Joan. He says about his memoirs,
every time I think back, all the good stuff was with you.
 
But at the same time, we know if Joan had chosen him and they were together right now, the likelihood that he would be running around with the next new thing is pretty high.
 
And I like to think there's something special about Joan to Roger,
but I do think if they were a married couple, she would become less special to him, and he only wants her because he doesn't have her.
 
Steve: I agree with that 100%. And I think, you know, if we could interview Mona,
she would confirm that assessment.
 
It's interesting, too, as they go here,
Roger apologizes to Joan and basically says that he's not up to anything in this particular moment.
 
I get a sense that he's being sincere in that it's not a pursuit now.
 
He's not trying to be cute or coy. It's two friends enjoying each other's company.
There's a real sweetness to it. I think, you know, Roger's down on the death of Ms. Blankenship, and we know Joan is hurting the immediate issue of Greg going off to Vietnam, but really, that is just the front end of the bigger issue of that relationship and the shortcomings of that marriage.
 
Jenna: Back at Don's apartment, Sally has some questions about Faye.
She had Don's keys. She knew Don had peanut butter,
and Faye said she wanted to meet Sally.
I like that Sally is smart enough to push Don on this.
 
Don won't say Faye is his girlfriend, but he says, I like her, and I talk about you a lot.
So here are Don and Sally having some pizza.
And even though he isn't completely honest, it does feel like a more respectful conversation. Like, Don is really listening to what Sally is asking and giving her an answer she's ready to hear instead of just sending her to watch TV while he works.
 
Steve: I can't go too far there in terms of Don's answers. It feels to me like he's being evasive here, and it feels like she's pursuing him and hounding him until she corners him to confirm that there's something more here than just a strictly professional relationship.
 
And he doesn't want to let that slip to her.
I think he's got fine reasons for not wanting to share that with Sally at this particular moment.
But when you've got Sally, I think connecting the dots so well at this point,
my advice to Don as a parent would probably be lean a little bit more into being honest here,
because the efforts to shield or conceal from her really aren't working, and that's gonna undermine her trust in you.
 
Jenna: Yes, that's good advice for Don Draper, I think.
 
I'm just looking at the scene going, he actually puts down his newspaper and makes eye contact with her,
and the fact that they're having a conversation where he's not - I mean, he is being evasive and he is dishonest, but it does feel like he's taking her seriously as a person, instead of just issuing commands to her about what to do next.
 
And I think that's the attention she wants. She just wants to be taken seriously, which is completely natural for somebody that age who feels like she's not taken seriously.
 
Steve: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's probably something she starved from for. From Betty and Don, I think, just naturally arrives at this place and at his best in these moments where he's having this conversation and he's focused on her.
 
I agree with you. That's all Sally's really craving, and it's not the biggest ask in the world.
She's too smart and too aware.
 
 
Jenna: As Joan and Roger are leaving the diner together,
a man appears with a gun and demands their cash, their jewelry,
even Joan's wedding ring.
 
When the mugger leaves, and Roger is, for once, the calm one.
Stop it, he says, which she's been saying to him the whole episode.
 
Everything can be replaced. You're fine.
And that is what's important.
And that's when she kisses him.
 
Steve: He is rather gallant here in this mugging and takes charge to ensure that they give the mugger what the mugger wants.
It really does feel like Roger stepped up in that moment and now trying to comfort Joan afterwards.
 
Of course, he immediately reciprocates. And, you know, I'm sure her kiss has. Has awakened that passion in him.
And now through the excitement and adrenaline of this mugging, we can see the electricity and the sexual attraction between them. The kisses are romantic.
 
I'm thinking perhaps the rest of it there on a street where they just got mugged,
maybe not so romantic.
 
Jenna: I had the same note. [Laughing]
I feel like you want to leave the area you were just robbed and not hang around for stairwell sex. But they are in the moment, so I did not predict that on the first watch, for sure.
 
Steve: Maybe all the dirty bathroom stalls were taken. I mean, I don't know.
 
 
Jenna: At bedtime at Don's apartment, Sally is wearing one of Don's white shirts to sleep in, and she tries to make her case that she should come to live with him.
That's just an impossible ask to Don Draper.
He puts up a lot of reasons why she can't,
but it's mostly just because he's getting himself together and he realizes what a lot of work it is to look after Sally.
 
And she promises she'll be good.
Do you think her motives are just to get away from Betty, or do you think she believes her life with her father will be so much happier because she never sees him now?
 
Steve: I think at C. All of the above. And what's heartbreaking in this scene to me is I think she sees right through his excuses, and he doesn't give her the real reasons why this isn't going to happen.
So she's left with these excuses that don't hold any water and she knows what she wants.
 
And I can't help but wonder if in Sally Draper's head,
she's now facing the question, you know, why is it my father doesn't want me to live with him and doesn't see how this would be so much better and wonderful for both of us.
I think it's a tougher scene emotionally than maybe hits you at first, just on the surface of it.
 
Jenna: I think Sally has some rose colored glasses about what Don is like, because when she does see him, he's probably a lot more relaxed about what she's allowed to do and less critical than Betty is.
 
And Don doesn't usually parent for the long game. He parents in the moment.
So just like Anna didn't make unwelcome demands on Don, ever.
I think Don makes fewer demands on Sally than her mother does. So I think she has that preference.
 
Steve: Oh, I think that's absolutely the case. But just that little conversation about Faye.
Does Sally have any equivalent conversations with Betty?
 
What's the value of the fact that, you know, as you pointed out, he puts the newspaper down and he's - she's got his full attention.
They're having a real conversation with each other.
I think that sort of connection is what she's hungry for. And I agree with all your points about it's not going to be ideal.
 
And, you know, Don is inebriated a large percentage of the time and.
But she's so hungry, I think, for that connection piece that it eclipses everything else in admittedly, her young adolescent mind.
 
 
Jenna: After Sally goes to sleep, Don starts to journal,
but he can't quite get there.
And I wonder if he has some guilt about not taking Sally when he knows what Betty is like as a mother and how hard it must be for Sally day to day.
 
Steve: It's an interesting question, because if we accept that what he's writing in his journal is more candid and open,
he's now had two successive conversations with Sally where he's not been completely open and honest about the reasons certain things aren't going to happen.
 
I wonder if he's feeling guilty about that lack of honesty with his daughter to then say, you know, I'm not in the mood to spill my guts in my diary.
 
 
Jenna: The next morning, Sally fixes Don some French toast with rum on it instead of syrup.
She mixed up the bottles and he keeps eating it anyway.
 
This scene starts to be less sweet for their time together, and more sad because you can see her campaigning to be so adult and for him to choose to be with her.
And you know it will never happen.
 
Steve: It's also interesting that she's able to get him to go along with the idea of they can spend the day together, he can miss work and they can enjoy some quality time.
And Don's up for that. You know, he goes for it.
 
And I think that shows that he does have real fondness and love for his daughter,
even though simultaneously, as you point out,
the idea of her living at his place full time, there's no hope of that happening.
 
Jenna: On the one hand, she gets what she wants. They can go to the zoo and the Dino Museum. He says one or the other.
Again, you know, you can do one or the other, but not both.
 
And he has to be back in the office by noon. But really they roll in pretty close to when Betty's pickup time is around 5 o'clock.
So I think Sally got to have the whole day she wanted after all,
but she's not getting that on a permanent basis, no matter how much she wants it.
 
We can see Don being terrible at setting boundaries, because he says there'll be no negotiating. It's one or the other, just till noon, and then apparently he caves on all of it.
And it's nice to see him to take a day doing things with his daughter. We criticize him for not doing that often enough,
but he is teaching her that what he says doesn't really matter.
 
And we know she was bothered by that when he said he would always come home and didn't keep that promise.
We're walking this line between,
isn't this a nice moment to have this day together, and the sadness of what's coming in the future is really looming ahead.
 
Steve: Yeah, I’m wondering if Don feels guilty about Sally's situation and his inability to give her what she really wants.
So to compensate, you know, he's giving her this fun day and, you know, doing what she wants and not forcing her to choose.
 
But again, it's a consolation prize compared to what she really wants. And inevitably, you know, Betty's going to show up and take her back to, you know, the suburbs where Sally doesn't want to be.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, Roger and Bert are trying to write Ms. Blankenship's obituary, and they call Joan for help.
And again, for a character who provided so much comic relief in Mad Men, there's genuine emotion at her loss here.
 
Joan elevates Ms. Blankenship's title to executive secretary for the obituary.
And Bert elevates her achievements further by saying she was born in 1898 in a barn. She died on the 37th floor of a skyscraper.
She's an astronaut.
 
And we've never known Bert to be that poetic or impractical about anything. So you can see how touched he is about this.
 
Steve: Yeah, it's really hitting Bert and Roger hard. And that makes sense because they've known this woman for decades and decades,
and we know they're both wrestling with,
you know, heading towards the exit themselves, both professionally, but as well in their personal life.
 
 
Jenna: Roger and Joan have a follow up conversation where Joan says she's not sorry about what happened, but she's married and so is Roger, meaning it's not going to continue.
 
Roger says, I feel something, and I know you do,
and I think she does.
Is any part of you wishing she would drop Greg and Roger would drop Jane and they would just go ahead and be together?
 
Steve: No, because Roger is a child,
as Lane has described him. He is a child. Joan made the right call and yeah, there is something there. Absolutely there is.
 
And maybe Greg isn't the answer, but just because Greg isn't the answer doesn't make Roger the answer.
He isn't.
And you've called him out plenty about his shortcomings.
 
So I think it's just another one of these sort of almost contradictory conditions where there's definitely something there, but that doesn't mean they're the right fit for each other, and child Roger would happily and without thought of consequence jump into this setup, almost like Sally wanting to live permanently with Don Draper.
 
And Joan is the adult here saying, you know, I'm married.
There is something, but we are not going to pursue this.
And I think she's right to draw that line.
 
Jenna: It's interesting that Joan is so committed to her original dream of being married to a good looking doctor, in spite of everything that's not working out with Greg.
 
You wouldn't initially see Joan as having so much in common with Betty,
but here she is choosing Greg, a man who isn't playing his part in the fantasy life she wrote for herself growing up.
 
I think people as beautiful and educated as Betty and Joan so often seem to get things so easily,
and they have that expectation that they can order their futures to be exactly what they wish for.
 
Joan doesn't have guilt about cheating on Greg with Roger.
It seems to me her loyalty is more to her dream of making her marriage a success than it is to Greg specifically.
 
Steve: I think there are a lot of unresolved tensions in the marriage between Joan and Greg, but with him absent, I think a lot of those kind of get put on the shelf.
 
So not to say that Joan's emotions and feelings aren't continuing to evolve, but there's really nothing going to come to a head, at least until such time as Greg is back in the picture.
 
 
Jenna: Sally and Don come into the office and Sally looks happier than we've seen her in a very long time.
They've had a great day together, they've gotten some sun,
and Betty will be by in a few minutes to pick her up.
It's really cute.
 
As Don heads to go get some work done and he and Sally give each other a little wave. It's really a sweet moment. Clearly it was a nice day.
 
 
Don introduces Sally to Megan so she can watch her, and he heads into his next meeting.
The Fillmore Brothers want a jingle and Peggy suggests Harry Belafonte.
Ken, Don and Stan are not impressed by that suggestion.
 
Steve: We know that Peggy has been politicized from her conversations with Abe and she's no longer looking at advertising in that strict, clean, isolated,
focused way that she was previously.
 
But now she's the Abe and she's talking to the non awakened, non politicized Donald Draper, Ken Cosgrove.
And it's interesting how the shoe is on the other foot here and they're the ones trying to limit it and draw this line around it.
And they also want to get away with drawing the line, but without taking a side in the conflict that's at hand there.
 
Don Draper tries to put a bow on it when he says it's their job to help Fillmore Auto, period, full stop. And it goes no further than that.
But everybody in the room knows there's much more to this question and issue.
They all know that they're implicated now in what's going on.
 
It's just a great scene because Peggy's not the advocate that Abe was.
But we can tell Peggy has moved. She's not in the same place she was, and she can't go back to the place she was before.
 
Jenna: When the men around that table insist that her suggestion to use Harry Belafonte as a no go, Peggy doesn't give up. She tries to change their minds.
 
She says maybe it would help the company's image in the South.
And then she asks, why do they do business with companies who don't hire African American people?
And nobody at that table thinks it's his job to worry about that.
 
But you can absolutely see that Abe's essay got Peggy to start thinking differently about her work and to start asking questions.
And it's a small step, but she's the one who takes it.
 
It's too bad Pete isn't in the scene because he made a similar pitch to Admiral that everybody else seemed to be shocked by.
So it would be interesting to see if he would back her up in this situation.
 
Steve: And it just feels very genuine to me, like, how do you get politicized?
To me, this is how it happens. Someone plants a seed, or you connect some dots or something affects you in a personal way or, you know, someone.
 
I love the writing here because I think it's not very satisfying or gratifying because, you know, we're not resolving it, we're not getting this addressed,
but we can see cracks are forming in the machine here.
 
And even with Dom's dismissal about trying to reiterate what is their deliverable for the client and that's their sole focus,
there's a, I don't know, an insecurity or a vulnerability to that assertion that everyone around the table knows that's not it,
but we're going to pretend it is because we just don't want to go there.
 
The conscience inside of those people, to a greater or lesser extent, is making some murmur at that moment and at this crucial moment, especially nationally, where maybe in New York City, on Madison Avenue, a lot of it isn't up and in the face of the people there, but it's certainly on the nightly news to a great extent.
 
 
Jenna: Don leaves this meeting and heads back to his office, where Megan is covering his desk. Sally's waiting, and she does not want to go back with her mother.
 
Steve: And we see here Sally behaving rather childishly, in contrast to sort of how she was presenting herself throughout most of the episode.
You know, she's yelling, I'm not going. I'm not leaving. I hate it.  
 
And she's really got no other avenue now to express her dissatisfaction and her resistance to this idea.
And as the grownups close in around her,
Don's desperate for someone to help him deal with his own daughter. And he asks Faye to talk to her.
 
Jenna: Don doesn't know how to fix any of this.
He orders Sally around, He grabs her wrist. He's completely flummoxed by what to do with her in this moment.
 
And again, he isn't looking at her and what she needs. Instead, he's overcome by how it looks to other people.
And I think Sally's unhappiness magnifies the self doubt that maybe he's not qualified to be in a meaningful relationship with anybody, including his daughter.
 
So I think that's what makes him reach out to somebody more adult, somebody who will have the right answers,
even though this is his job and Don is the one failing this test.
 
So Faye's unlucky timing brings her to Don's office at that moment, and he says,
I can't bring her back kicking and screaming to her mother.
Can you talk to her?
And this is an awful thing to do to somebody. Sally is already escalated, and Faye has nothing to do with it. So to send her in is really unfair.
 
Steve: And really, I think going back to your earlier question on the first time he asked Faye take Sally back to his apartment.
I don't have a problem with that request.
 
I do have a problem with this request, because when your kid is, I'll call it misbehaving, but we know emotionally where Sally is at this moment.
 
And really what she needs is for her father to scoop her up and give her a hug and reinforce that love.
And he's wooden and can't do that in this moment. So it's so unfair to ask Faye to slide in there. Of course, it goes very badly.
 
Jenna: I kind of understand that Don thinks Faye is a psychologist, so she'll know how to get Sally to do what he wants.
But you have to have some kind of relationship for that.
And Sally's already too upset to have a discussion.
 
So of course, Faye is just as terrible as we would have predicted.
She at least named Sally's feeling by saying, I know you don't want to go,
And then she adds, but you have to.
 
And it's like if Peggy stood in front of Faye and said,
I know you want Don to be in a healthy relationship with you, but he's a serial cheater. [Laughing]
I mean, it might be true, but it's not what she wants to hear.
 
We have this child who was a happy girl strolling in after a great day with her dad.
Now she goes running down the hallway trying to escape this confrontation,
and she trips and falls.
 
Steve: Well, and let's not forget, too, she tells Faye to shut up and says that she doesn't even know her mother.
So here we have Sally lashing out in an aggressive,
very untoward way, which probably just further highlights, you know, Don's embarrassment that it's his daughter who's in the midst of this in the office, in front of all his co-workers.
 
Jenna: It's Megan, who kneels down in front of Sally, and Sally hugs her.
It's going to be all right, Megan says.
No, it's not. Sally answers.
 
And I always thought Sally meant that going back to her mother was terrible and that that's what will never be all right.
 
But I think it's also about her father and how he's let her down.
He's not going to rescue her. He's not going to stand up for her.
 
And when Megan adds, I fall all the time,
this very simple sentence speaks to Sally's humanity. She's not trying to boss Sally or chastise her. She looks at her, she takes her seriously,
and she gives her what comfort she can, even though it's small in this moment.
 
Steve: It's a sweet moment, but it also feels very lonely from Sally's perspective because, like you say,
I think she feels the disappointment here of, you know, she's not going to get this from her mother. She's not going to get it from her father. There is no escape for her.
It isn't going to be all right.
 
Ultimately, Sally's made her best shot here for something better, and it's failed abysmally.
 
Jenna: So now Betty's in reception, and Megan, Faye, Joan, Peggy, and Don come out with Sally.
There's an amazing shot with all of these Mad Men women in one scene.
 
And even though a little girl falling isn't the most traumatic thing that's ever happened, there's something about it they all recognize, as each of these women try to move forward and life pops an obstacle directly in their paths.
 
Steve: Out in the lobby, Sally's now got control of herself and is duly handed over to Betty.
 
Jenna: Before long, Faye, Joan, and Peggy go back to their offices, which I thought was interesting, because I would guess Faye would want to get an eyeful of Betty just out of curiosity, but she gives them space.
 
So now it's Megan, Betty, Sally, and Don in the room,
which is kind of an interesting grouping.
 
Betty commands Sally to say goodbye to her father, which she does,
and Betty tells Sally she missed her.
But I also think Betty's jealous that Sally prefers her lying father to spending time in Betty's comparably stable but judgy house.
 
It's so sad to me. I know Don is getting his life together, and Sally would not be happier living with him,
But I'm so sorry she's so unhappy with her life as it is, and that she has to go back to it.
 
Steve: Yeah, there's no winners in this situation. And I think,
you know, given how Betty sort of washed her hands of it and came to get Sally on her own timing, if Betty had any idea of sort of the scene that had just occurred, I think she would have some sort of satisfaction of like, okay, you're not the hero this time, are you, dad? You know, you're the betrayer. You're the one who's failing your child.
 
 
Jenna: Back in Don's office, Faye has fixed herself a drink, and she confronts Don about putting her in a position to fix Sally.
 
Before, on the phone with her breakup with the other guy, we heard Faye say,
“and I don't want to hear you complain that I don't cook because I don't cook!”
 
And here in this scene, she's telling Don,
I'm not good with kids. It feels like there was a test and I failed it.
I love that insight and honesty.
 
She's holding Don accountable for his mistake because he was unfair to her.
And she's also being real with him about her shortcoming and how it makes her feel.
 
Steve: Yeah, but don't you think she's projecting her insecurity onto him? I'm not disagreeing that he's a bit of a dumbass, because he assumes that because she's a psychologist, that she must be good with dealing with, you know, emotionally upset in a moment.
 
But was he, you know, in a sexist, chauvinistic way, projecting that all women are good with kids, so therefore, Faye must be good with kids. So Faye should be with Sally and then judging her negatively to say, gosh, you're not that good with kids.
You know, I thought all women were.
 
I don't think any of that's gone through Don Draper's head, I think, when he says, Jesus, what a mess, you know, that's the extent of it for him. You know, he's not casting darts at other people.
 
So I feel right in this scene, when Faye's talking about her dissatisfaction with the circumstance, I think she's got a legitimate grievance, but I think she's also voicing more about her own self perception and insecurities and projecting it onto Don Draper, rather than him having consciously or deliberately put it onto her.
 
Jenna: I disagree. I think it is sexist. It's not just that she's a psychologist. It's that she's female and he expects her to have this innate ability to connect with kids, and she doesn't.
And it's a sore spot for her.
 
And when Faye goes on to say, I chose to be where I am,
we can see the echoes of Peggy saying something similar to Pete.
She didn't get to do both things. She had to choose one.
And Faye says, I don't view it as a failure. And Don seems sympathetic.
 
Here he can see the weight she's carrying and she can see all of those things she feels defensive about.
He apologizes, he hugs her.
He says it doesn't matter.
I almost believe him, but I don't. I think she did fail a test. I think he did expect her to be a lot better at it than she was, and I think he judges her for it.
 
Steve: I'm going to come out on the other side of that, and my ace in the hole will be Matt Weiner's commentary where he says Don is sorry he never thought or saw it from her perspective.
 
It's not a great look for the dudes to say they're so self absorbed that they're not at all looking at this or even cognizant of these challenges for a professional woman in the mid-60s.
But I take Don Draper at face value on this one. I don't think he had any of those thoughts. He's too busy struggling with how to be a parent,
how to not be embarrassed in the office in front of his co workers, how to manage his ex wife, and how to manage his own life, which he's, you know, managed to screw up from having so much going for it at one point and now having so many wheels pop off the axle.
 
So people are tired of hearing me say it, but it just feels very genuine and real to me. Like, you know, everything is this combination of our own self perception and view on things as well as, you know, what we're perceiving from others.
And, you know, sometimes to a greater or lesser extent,
that is accurate, but it could be quite off or independent. And it all boils up into a mess like we just saw in the scene.
 
 
Jenna: As Faye leaves, Don watches her go.
He does seem into her, and then he turns and finishes the drink she was drinking.
The stress test of the runaway daughter, I think, showed him that keeping up the healthy reboot is a lot harder than it seems.
 
Steve: Yeah, and it's such a subtle, minor detail that he takes that drink and downs it. I don't think that bodes well for Mr. Draper, given his proclivities to this point.
 
 
Jenna: In the next scene, Joyce visits Peggy in her office and invites her out for drinks.
And Peggy gives her a mild comment about, I don't know who I'm going to be surprised by when I show up.
So she calls Joyce out for sneaking Abe in on her, even though I don't think she's really upset.
 
And Joyce has this monologue about how men are soup and they spread out and they need a woman to be a pot or a bowl to contain them.
 
In a truth call out.
Peggy says, I don't think that's true.
And across this episode, Roger has looked to Joan to hold all of his feelings,
and Don has looked to Faye to contain his upset daughter.
And Abe was looking at Peggy to maybe save her from corporate malevolence.
 
But I'm with Peggy. I don't think this analogy holds up,
because we can see Sally pushing against being contained. She spreads out. She takes up space here, and Peggy does, too.
She stands up against Abe and she refuses to fold into his belief system. But then she turns around and pushes back against her ad team, and she questions their complicity.
 
It's true that the men in this show are often looking at the women and expecting them to be a particular thing and ignoring who they really are.
But the women do that, too.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think it's just a human behavior and social dynamic that I think it's all true and it's all untrue, and it can vary. So I think it's fun the way Joyce kind of playfully lays that out there as a status. And I like that Peggy pushes against it to say, you know, I don't think that's true.
 
And I think they're both right at different times and places. And I think it's got nothing to do with gender. So, you know, are the women defining the men? Are the men defining the women? Are the circumstances? Is it something inside people?
 
I think it's all of those things, and that's what makes it so interesting.
The other thing I like about this scene is Peggy, and I think you're right, like, playfully. She's not upset about the setup to meet Abe and talk again, even though it didn't work out.
And Joyce doesn't seem at all shocked that Abe has bungled it.
 
But Joyce doesn't make any big apology or back away from it. You get this sense that Joyce will do it again if the circumstance arises. And Peggy's okay with that.
 
So I kind of like this respect and acceptance they each seem to have of each other,
you know, so they. They seem almost set apart from some of the other forces and influences we've seen in the relationships in this episode.
They're not trying to control or shape each other. They're just coexisting, and that works for them. And it's kind of a nice friendship.
 
Jenna: I agree.
Peggy won't go out with Joyce that night. And Joyce asks, “angry or lovesick?”
and she's not judgy at Peggy either way.
And when Peggy answers, I don't know.
I appreciate that honesty, too.
 
Peggy is not going out and faking it just so that she can hang onto a group and pretend to belong.
She wants something authentic, and she trusts herself to be good company if she can't find it with someone else and she doesn't feel like it, so she doesn't go pretend.
 
And I love that she has this genuine friendship. This is a really good thing for her.
 
 
As the episode closes, there's a fantastic shot of Joan, Faye and Peggy in the same elevator leaving work for the day.
No one speaks. They're just carrying all the things that happened, and what that might mean for their futures.
And we know exactly how heavy that elevator is with all their worries and doubts and hopes, too.
 
For all their steps forward, it doesn't feel like their individual progress is substantial or trailblazing, like an astronaut, say.
 
Steve: I kind of just like the diversity in the elevator of so many successes. But they have their failures, they have their limitations, they have their aspirations.
 
It just seemed like a nice cross section of some great characters that we've come to know in the series and we're interested about, and we're riding along with them.
To me, it was a very sort of satisfying wrap to the episode.
 
Jenna: I think this episode has a lot of sadness in it, but I also appreciate the strength and the authenticity too.
Sally, Joan, Peggy, and Faye don't get exactly what they want, but they voice their needs honestly to the men who want things from them.
 
And all of them have to live and operate within systems that challenge and limit them.
But they get up the next day and they try again, doing the best that they can do.
And you have to admire that in them, even if you want them to want different things.
 
 
Steve: I'm looking forward to the Vivian Winters spinoff where Vivian Winters encounters people and judges them around the city.
 
Jenna: I don't know how I can tell, but when you took that first breath, I knew it was going to be some stupid thing.
[Laughing]
 
We'd like to give a listener shout out this episode to Ben C.
Thank you for following us on social media.
We're so thankful for all the positive reviews and subscribers. We really appreciate our listeners!
 
Steve: That's it for this episode of All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, Mad Men C to Z dot com, to vote for your favorite Sterling Lines and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
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Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.