Mad Men C to Z S3E8 Souvenir Podcast Transcript

This is our human-edited podcast transcript for Mad Men Season 3 Episode 8: Souvenir. 
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Mad Men C to Z S3E8: Souvenir Podcast Transcript
 
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
 
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each rewatch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men, C to Z.
 
 
Jenna: Welcome to Mad Men C to Z, Season 3, Episode 8.
This is Souvenir, written by Lisa Albert and Matthew Weiner.
This episode was directed by Phil Abraham.
 
In Matt Zoller Seizt's book, Mad Men Carousel, which includes essays about most episodes of Mad Men, he talks about this episode as being really similar to the next one, arguing that basically the same things happen to different characters.
 
He suggests that this is a weaker episode for that reason, but I have to disagree. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff going on in Souvenir.
 
Steve: Yeah, I enjoy it as an episode.
I think, you know, Matt Weiner in his commentary talks about it being a couple of short stories, this sort of summer romance theme. I find it interesting and entertaining.
 
Jenna: Yes. So the setting is August of 1963, the same time period as in the movie Dirty Dancing.
And sometimes people have described this time as the last innocence for the United States, since the Kennedy assassination is coming in November of this year.

 
But there were riots in Birmingham in the spring and there was Medgar Evers’ murder, and before that, multiple wars and conflicts and scandals and unjust policies. There's a lot of pain and change in the past, present, and future at this point.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think to generalize about the United States, you know, it's a large country. There's always a lot of different things happening in different places and parts, segments of the society, different people, et cetera.
 
So anyone who talks about this as a quiet, innocent period before the storm was breaking, I think that says probably more about their reference frame than it does about the realities of a country like the United States in 1963.
 
Jenna: This episode opens in Pete's office.
It's a little bit unusual actually, in this episode, that this is the only scene in the office, especially since many of the scenes are still set in New York.
 
We see Pete, he's reading Ebony magazine, it's five o', clock, and Hildy comes in, hinting that she's ready to leave for the weekend.
So Pete doesn't notice it's time to go home. Trudy's out of town for the summer.
 
Steve: It's kind of funny that Pete's reading Ebony too, because we know from a prior episode he's frustrated that Admiral wasn't willing to look at the opportunities for their product in the African American market.
This is a cute little nod back to that realization by Pete and the fact that he's still dipping his toes into the African American market.
 
Jenna: As Pete and Hildy talk about her weekend plans, she's going away to a place in Saltaire.
Mosquitoes, he says.
 
She says she's one of those people mosquitoes don't bother. And Pete responds, a thing like that!
Which I believe is his third a thing like that across the series.
The first was to Peggy for her Belle Jolie copy assignment in the elevator.
 
I wonder if Pete is maybe a mosquito that Hildy isn't bothered by. She seems to handle him pretty well.
 
Steve: Could be. My old man wasn't bothered by mosquitoes and I envied him for it.
 
I like his posh put down of Saltaire as not being a premier place to go to.
And as a Dyckman Campbell, Pete would know where are the in places to go and which are the runners up or the consolation prizes, you know, for summer getaways in New York City.
 
Jenna: Before too long, the office guys gather around, and we get a lot of exposition in one quick line from Ken:
He says, Cooper's in Montana, Sterling's in Jane, and Draper's on vacation.
 
We remember Cooper has cattle on a ranch. He talked about that with his sister when they were going to sell the business to the Brits. So this is a detail that he did start to enjoy that part of his life a little since they sold the company.
 
And we also find out that Roger is spending time with Jane. We're not going to see them in this episode.
 
And they clarify that Don is not on vacation. He's working for Hilton, which means he's been traveling to lots of different places to get a feel for the hotels.
 
Steve: I had to laugh at the put down of the “armpits” like Dallas or Denver, you know, cities that in more modern times are considered a lot better for a New Yorker.
 
Back in 1963, these are outposts, distant places, which I think is also a nod to Connie Hilton as a difficult client. So he's getting Don out there, putting in the miles, and checking out his properties.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Draper house, we see Betty and Don together. And the last time we saw them, she was, we can assume, fantasizing about Henry on her new fainting couch while he stalked in and barked that he signed the contract.
 
But things seem to have smoothed over. They seem pretty happy. Here.
We see Betty at the table. She's working. She's busy with her Junior League advocacy, and Don seems pleased to see her when he comes home.
 
Steve: I guess if we put it from the perspective of he's been away on a trip and just arrived home, it is a relatively mild greeting between the two of them. I mean, she almost instantly suggests he go outside, spend some time with the kids, catching lightning bugs.
 
Jenna: I was thinking about that, too.
She makes that suggestion. It doesn't seem like there's something hiding there, like, get out of my face or anything. He seems pleased to go out and join them.
 
But I was just thinking how these family moments are few and far between.
I know they're not very interesting TV, but they do fill up your life, these little things, like catching lightning bugs in the backyard. I don't know if people still do that, but it's sad for me to contemplate a life without those shared moments.
 
And although we know that Don has access to more of them as an adult than he did in his childhood, it feels like he doesn't often make the most of them.
So to have this little hint of a time when he does say yes to that, it's. It's kind of nice to see.
 
 
Steve: From this family scene, we cut back to Pete alone in his dark apartment.
He doesn't even bother to unbutton his shirt before pulling it off over his head. Pete's alone at home, living the bachelor life in the New York City summer.
 
Jenna: This scene where he struggles to take off his shirt and tie. [Laughing]
He pulls it over his head so awkwardly, it's like he's never dealt with fabric before.
 
And he really doesn't seem to know what to do with himself without Trudy organizing his life for him.
I guess maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that Pete Campbell doesn't much enjoy his own company.
 
Steve: Well, I'm sure he'll get up to something soon enough here.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Draper house, Betty is making phone calls for the Junior League.
We see her forehead is a little bit shiny and she's got a fan going, so even their nice house doesn't have air conditioning, and they're feeling the heat in August.
 
While she's making calls, the phone rings and Hilton's office calls again for Don. They want him to leave for Rome on Tuesday.
 
And he writes the trip information directly on Betty's list that she's working from.
Her work doesn't matter at all. Her whole work world is just scrap paper to him.
 
Steve: Don's going to do what Don's going to do. The trip to Rome sounds very exotic and interesting. I don't really get the sense that Don is too enthused about going. What was your take?
 
Jenna: No, he doesn't seem like this is a great opportunity. And we've never seen whether or not Don has been to Europe.
So he invited Midge to go to Paris.
And he knew a lot of cities when he was playing the places game in The Jet Set, but we've never had reference to him traveling.
 
We knew that Betty lived in Italy before. But I would think for somebody like Don Draper who wants to see the world, that this would be really amazing. And he seems to take it very much in stride.
 
Steve: But what about Don Draper makes you think he wants to see the world?
 
Jenna: Just that sort of get out of the place he came from and scoop up all the best that life has to offer, that whole mentality.
But I suppose if what he's really doing is just running away and escaping and not really seeking, then that does make the difference.
 
Steve: As I think of the answer to that question from my perspective,
I can't really think of examples where Don has a curiosity or an enthusiasm for the new and the different.
 
You know, things have utility and serve a purpose. And as he builds his career and advances professionally, he seems very motivated.
But I don't get a sense he's doing it for his own personal satisfaction or he's got the travel bug or anything like that, you know, just as a. As a human being.
 
And I wonder if we don't default to that assumption just based on Don Draper's socioeconomic class, I suppose, as opposed to Dick Whitman's.
 
Jenna: That's an interesting question. I think we've touched on that before a little bit when we talked about whether or not Don Draper has hobbies and whether or not Don Draper ever does anything that doesn't also have a benefit to him.
 
So I can see how it would be opportunistic for him,
because sometimes he shows curiosity about other people and their stories. For example, when Midge and Roy and their friends were going to smoke pot, and we had the sense maybe he hadn't tried it before, and he was up for that opportunity when it came up.
 
Or with The Jet Set, he was up to try something that was new.
So in that case, he's curious and open to experiences.
But the distinction you're making about going out and seeking them and being that motivated, that doesn't seem to be present. You're correct.
 
Steve: Yeah, I don't think he fears the new and the different,
but I don't get the sense he's seeking it out actively or that it's fulfilling for him personally in an esoteric way, you know, outside of whatever its utility is in serving him in his life.
 
He does suggest to Betty that she should come with him to Rome. She seems to be wrapped up in her Pleasantville Reservoir work, so it's not that she's not interested, but I don't get the sense that she jumps on the possibility either.
 
Jenna: They do have a new baby, and that's her first reason for not going.
But she didn't seem thrilled to receive the invitation either, which surprised me a little bit.
 
We get a truth call out here, too. When he hangs up, she says they should have gone to the beach because he's been working and gone the whole time,
and he says, oh, that's not true.
And that's where he invites her to go, which I think is a nice.
 
I don't know. We have such a low bar for Don, but I think that's nice of him to offer and to include her. And then when she says no, he doesn't press too hard to make it happen.
 
Steve: In her commentary, Lisa Albert mentions that Don's life is in balance at this point in time. He's got an interesting client. He's swirling away on that. That involves some travel and extra work.
 
He's not currently cheating on Betty. I guess we'll see how long this condition lasts.
 
 
Jenna: At Pete's house, the next morning, he's on the couch watching cartoons and eating cereal.
He's laughing at Davey and Goliath, a claymation series that ran from 1961 to 2004. This series was funded by the Lutheran Church, and it included lessons about being an ethical person, sharing, helping others,
and doing the right thing.
 
It seems like Pete doesn't have any kind of schedule or direction without Trudy.
Again, sometimes the writers or people who talk about Mad Men say that Betty is childish or adolescent. And yet here is a man with all kinds of resources –
 
We were talking about curiosity and Don. I mean,
he spends his day eating cereal on the couch, watching cartoons and napping.
 
Not that I particularly judge him for that choice for a down day,
but Pete doesn't have friends he hangs out with.
This is what he does without Trudy managing him.
 
Steve: It is kind of funny to contemplate that, because we know he's very ambitious and driven in the workplace, and we know that Trudy ticks all the boxes.
So when all those connections are cut and he's free to his own devices again, it's kind of humorous.
 
 
Jenna: In the evening, Pete takes the trash out and discovers a neighbor, Gudrun, who is sniffling and trying to stuff a dress into the garbage chute.
This actress is Nina Rausch. You might recognize her from The Sandglass or Fete.
 
Steve: In this scene it feels to me like Pete is trying to be a good neighbor, friendly. He sees a young woman crying and he wants to help.
 
It turns out that she's worn the dress without permission and stained it. So she's trying to figure out a solution. She can't get it clean so she's going to disappear it.
 
Pete suggests, you know, disappearing the dress isn't going to solve the problem. Maybe she should blame it on the kid.
She won't do that. And it's funny. Just the ruthlessness of Pete. The kid could be a perfect place to pin this.
 
In the end, he suggests that she give it to him and he'll see what he can do going back to the place where she bought it.
It's a fun scene and I don't get any bad vibes off of Pete in this scene.
 
Jenna: The idea with the name au pair, which in French means on par with, is that the au pair is living as part of the family unit, not domestic help.
 
However, it's clear in this scene, you know, you just said, well, there's not any bad intention. But it's clear in this scene that Gudrun doesn't have this equal status.
She didn't ask to borrow the dress. You know, it's not like they're friends that she can borrow a dress from, and she's afraid of being sent home and losing her job over it.
 
And in the DVD commentary, Weiner talks about this being a class issue, that there are workers who bump up against people like Pete who have far fewer rights than he walks around with.
And she falls into that category. He has the power.
 
So I agree with you. In this scene it doesn't seem like there's anything nefarious about it, but she still, every day is walking around with that sense of, you know, you have the power to control my life if you want to.
 
Steve: Well, and even if she forgot about that power disparity, we know Pete Campbell has that front and center in his head at all times.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Drapers’ house, Betty is busy. She wakes to the alarm. She works while she's drinking her coffee. She goes and runs errands.
Unlike Pete, she has things she's attending to.
 
We see her get dressed up. She looks really beautiful in this outfit. And she looks in the mirror to apply some lipstick before going out.
 
Steve: Sally is sitting there and watches her mother check her makeup, fix her makeup. And it just seems like this classic scene of the young girl seeing their mother as the epitome of beauty and womanhood.
 
We just see Sally there absorbing and watching what Betty's doing and admiring her mother and simultaneously wanting to be her mother, measuring herself against her mother in the mirror.
 
Jenna: Both Betty and Sally only look at Betty while Betty is there.
It's so sad. Betty puts a hand on Sally's shoulder, but there's no conversation. And okay, maybe Betty's in a hurry. She's getting ready to go to her meeting, but it's not any - you know, she doesn't kiss Sally on the head or give any attention to Sally at all.
 
And Sally is left behind to stare in the mirror at herself.
And she turns her head kind of this way and that way,
exactly, pondering that question of, I can see who you are,
and is that who I'm supposed to be? Because I don't feel like that at all. And I don't know how I'm going to get from here to there.
 
It's such a short scene on screen, but it's so powerful, and it asks these really big questions.
We see Peggy pondering this question, and Pete, and Don, and everybody. And here it is in Sally:
Who is it that I'm supposed to be, and how am I supposed to get there?
 
Steve: I also think it's some more data about where Betty's head is, what Betty's interested in, what Betty's not interested.
Personally, I don't think Betty is all that interested in being a parent and parenting. That's not her jam. That doesn't float her boat.
 
And these little opportunities to interact and reinforce and guide and support or whatever, just to take advantage of this little interaction with her daughter to parent is not a choice that Betty's opting for.
 
It's not a federal crime. But I think these add up over time to really make it clear that this is not what Betty wants to be in life. You know, as a doting mother, that's not her.
 
Jenna: And we wouldn't probably compare Sally's childhood to Don's in terms of neglect or abuse or anything.
And yet we can watch Sally time and again being left behind,
being shoved aside.
 
It is pretty painful to see, as you say, the things accumulating, and what does that add up to over time?
 
Steve: And we've talked about this offline,
but I think it gets back to some of our stereotypes and norms of the behavior we expect out of different roles and people and expectations for motherhood and what Betty should be doing or what our standard is.
 
And we hold her to this standard where simultaneously a different standard for the father, you know, Don Draper in this case, who in, in many ways is more doting and in other ways equally or if not more neglectful, and how we score them and assess them in our minds. It really makes me think a bit about my own assumptions and defaults stereotypes here.
 
Jenna: Yes. I remember a friend of mine was talking about her relatives - asking when their kids were little - and saying, oh, is the husband going to babysit today?
And she's like, no, he's parenting.
So those issues persist even today.
 
 
In the next scene, Betty, Francine, and their friend are at the city council meeting.
Just as they get to their issue on the agenda, Henry Francis walks in.
He throws the governor's name around.
He asks to delay the project for further study, and the council agrees.
 
Steve: You can really see the clout that Henry has when they ask who he is. And it's clear he's an advisor to the governor.
This is a posh community, so their ties and concerns about the governor's attentions are probably higher than maybe some more disadvantaged communities.
 
Basically, Henry saves the day here by swooping in and at least getting a delay. And Betty and Francine are thrilled that they've at least got a victory in the short term here for delaying this project.
 
Jenna: When the women applaud the decision, the mayor says, calm down, ladies. So even that amount of noise from the women folk, I guess, is too extra.
 
Steve: It's kind of sexy, in the hearing, when Betty turns to look back at Henry, they make eye contact and she mouths thank you to him.
You can see he's pretty happy with himself here because he's interested in Betty's attentions every bit as much as she's interested in his, I think.
 
Jenna: Yes. And when he arrives and she turns and sees him, her whole face lights up. And it's completely different than we've seen her light up for Don coming in the door.
 
So you can see that's genuine. That's not something that she's faking just to please him or to manipulate him into doing whatever it is she wants.
 
After the meeting, Henry walks Betty to her car.
Francine says, good night to them after a Jack Kerouac reference: “And they say, you can't fight city hall,” she says.
 
And Henry replies, “in politics, when you have no power, delay.”
Betty thanks Henry again, and he leans into her car.
And I noticed that he is really very direct about his feelings for her. And Don isn't that way.
 
And Betty is receptive to Henry here in a very different way than she was to Arthur from the stables.
Of course, Henry is available and Arthur was engaged. But what do you think it is about Henry that makes her more open to him at this point?
 
Steve: Listening to the commentary from the writers,
I guess my take is it's reciprocity from his openness. He's very clear that he's interested in her. He's impressed by her.
 
Even his answer to the questions where she, you know, tries to be proper and thanks him again for helping out and, you know, he spins it into all. He puts his heart into things that are important to him, you know, or someone who's important to him.
 
He's invading her personal space here. Again, not really crossing the line where it's completely untoward,
but it's certainly a much warmer, more intimate positioning than we would expect if he didn't have bigger interests here.
 
I get the sense that Betty's at the point now where she's so starved for this type of attention that she's just very amenable to it and then reciprocates it.
 
Jenna: So as Henry leans into the car, he kisses her.
After, they don't talk about the kiss or what it means. They just say “good night” and “drive safely.”
 
But there's no criticism, and they don't have any oh, we shouldn't have done that mistake kind of talk, either.
It's a thing that happened.
And she does look a little worried or concerned.
He looks pleased.
 
She doesn't feel like she has just turned her world upside down, even though maybe she has.
 
Steve: The kiss is also very mutual. You know, it's an extended kiss. She's kissing him back. She's not just a passive recipient of his kiss.
 
And the silence afterwards where neither of them says anything or tries to brush it off or smooth it over,
I think just adds to the tension of the scene here.
They're not running away from this moment,
even if they're not leaping into each other's arms either.
 
 
Jenna: When Betty gets home, the first thing she does is drink a glass of water. And we know that's what Don does after he's been out with somebody else.
You just can't wash that away.
 
When Don comes into the kitchen, he notices her happiness and he asks about what happened.
And we see him facing her and listening and making eye contact.
It's real attention he's paying to her. And he's not sniping at her or correcting her.
 
It's a little bit ironic that she's out kissing Henry and she comes home and gets from Don the thing she always hoped to get from Don.
 
Steve: How much of her joy and excitement is related to Henry versus the Pleasantville reservoir, do you think?
 
Jenna: I have that question as well. I'm not sure if she ever would have gotten involved so actively with the water tank project had Henry not been related to that project.
So I think we can definitely question her motives there.
 
Steve: I mean, she pitches it to Don completely as about the reservoir.
But as a viewer, I feel like I fall on the other side of the fence, that that's all just a mask for the real excitement, which is this quite warm, passionate kiss with Henry at the end of the hearing.
 
Jenna: We get a truth call out in this scene when Betty celebrates her success, and she describes the outcome. She says the whole project was based on the idea that the water's not good anymore, which is a lie.
It's not true at all. Not even a little bit. They just made it up.
 
And then she quotes Henry to Don saying,
when you don't have any power, you have to delay things.
Which could describe her situation with Don if she decides she wants to leave him.
 
Steve: Yeah. And in some ways, maybe it describes the broader marriage in the sense of delay. Right.
 
You know, so there's no dramatic action taking place,
but we don't have this feeling, despite, you know, no signs of additional pressure or stress at the moment. We don't have a sense that it's in a good place or a problem has been solved.
It really does feel like a holding pattern.
 
Jenna: A thousand little cuts.
 
In bed that night, Betty decides she does want to go to Rome with Don.
She says, I just want to get on a plane.
And I didn't get the sense that this was guilt over her kiss with Henry, as much as she has awakened a need for adventure.
 
Her Junior League project is over now, and she needs something else to do. She's had a little bit of success, and she might as well say yes to this opportunity.
 
Steve: Matt Weiner gives the impression that she does feel guilt and wants to make that situation right.
I think your point is well taken, too, for her as a character. So maybe it's a combination of the two.
 
So this both addresses the guilt of the kiss in the parking lot, as well as represents, you know, a fun trip to Rome, where we know from her modeling career she was previously.
So it's a place she knows and loves, and it's a chance to take that adventure with her husband.
 
 
Jenna: In our next scene, we see Pete in a department store, this time Bonwit Teller.
Oh, Pete, ye of the chip and dip. Every time you're in a department store returning items, we get classic lines.
Again, the people there try to redirect him to the men's room.
 
When he tries to return the dress, the saleswoman refuses, saying, well, anyone could have sewn the tag on here.
And Pete asks to speak to the manager.
The woman says, of the entire store?
Of the Republic of Dresses, Pete snaps.
 
Steve: I do like Pete's ugliness here because this is an upscale store.
Yes, theoretically, somebody could sew a fake label on it so that they could go and return it.
 
But, you know, this is a Dyckman Campbell standing before you, so surely, you know, he would never be suspected of any sort of nefarious deed of that nature.
He goes from being very overly saccharine, sweet and accommodating to, you know, the ugly side comes out and he wants the manager.
And he's tired of dealing with this person who's making aspersions of, of his character.
 
Jenna: As he's holding the dress from Gudrun, he's treating the woman in front of him very similarly. He understands that he has the power in this exchange.
 
And we haven't had a surprising yet inevitable entrance this good since Peggy showed up to bail Don out of jail.
But the “may I help you?” voice comes from none other than Joan.
 
Of course, she would be the manager of the Republic of Dresses, and of course, she's already in charge. Both Joan and Pete are embarrassed to see each other, but for very different reasons.
 
Steve: And I love that dishonesty,
I guess maybe dishonesty is not the right word. That embarrassment between the two of them,
they both probably can deduce the falsehoods of the other story.
 
Yet they keep the masks up and allow that premise to endure because they have their own reasons of, you know, ensuring that their own mask doesn't slip.
 
But at the same time, there's some seriousness, some stakes in terms of, well, where has Joan ended up since she left the firm?
And whose dress is this that Pete is so eager to have rectified? You know, in terms of the damage to it?
 
Jenna: I think that's a little one-sided, because I don't think it occurs to Pete that Joan would be embarrassed or why she would be. And of course she puts a bright face on it.
 
Joan knows full well this isn't Trudy's dress. She recognizes that it's the wrong size. But she absolutely understands Pete's potential embarrassment and agrees not to mention it if they see each other again.
 
Pete's made up a story about spilling the wine and Joan takes care of it. And she tries to communicate that her work there is just a fun advantage to her.
She says I get my pick before they get put out, she tells him, when she means the dresses.
 
Joan can't resist asking how are things at the office? Which I think betrays the fact that she misses it there. It's more than just a polite ask. And Pete doesn't give her very much. He says Moneypenny hasn't self destructed yet, but it's only a matter of time.
So we know that John Hooker has taken Joan's place.
 
Steve: I think there is more to Joan's predicament that Pete would be aware of because she was leaving the company to cease working. Right? She's now the armpiece of a handsome surgeon.
 
The fact that she's working in this store,
maybe, you know, Joan's story isn't completely unbelievable,
but given Pete and his level of suspicion and the rest, I agree he doesn't have high expectations for Joan, but he knows something's gone sideways that she's working here as a manager in this dress store.
 
He's got his own secret, so he's not going to dig or pry at that in any way.
And their mutual discomfort in the situation makes it a delicious scene from my perspective.
 
Jenna: Yeah, I think Pete is too self absorbed to care or notice her discomfort.
And I think for her, because when I watch the scene,
I'm a little bit surprised by how uncomfortable Joan is.
 
When I think about it a little bit, being seen by Pete and knowing that he could go back to the office and tell the others,
you know, she's really going to care that Roger knows, because Roger will register that and he will have that opinion, where Pete might not really think that much about Joan.
 
And we also have this moment where Joan reveals that now Greg is thinking of a new specialty in psychiatry and that means he would take even longer to finish his program. So she'll continue to be working.
 
And as Pete leaves, the camera lingers on her face. And you can see she doesn't like being caught here working in a shop,
even though it's a luxury Fifth Avenue department store.
 
 
Steve: The next scene has Don and Betty arriving in the hotel lobby in Rome. They're at the Hilton. For a show that's filmed in Los Angeles area, they do a pretty good job of creating the illusion that this is the lobby of a hotel in Rome.
 
They're soon up to their room and the phone rings. It's Connie checking in on them, making sure they've arrived all right, setting up an evening meeting for them for dinner.
 
Jenna: I think that scene, that moment in the lobby is so key.
As Betty starts to light a cigarette, when Don heads to the desk, a man passing by immediately pauses to light it for her.
 
This is Betty being noticed again. This whole episode is about these moments where people are paying attention to her, which is what she's craved the entire show.
And she speaks Italian.
So in the hotel room, they see a fruit basket waiting for them.
 
And Betty critiques Don for giving the bellhop a $2 tip. She says it's more than he makes in a week.
And I feel like that's a class error that Don's making, more than it's Betty being selfish. This extravagant tipping would mark him as somebody who doesn't know what to do.
 
Steve: Yeah, I don't know if it's a class error so much as I think it's just the US dollar is sky high in value.
Italy is still in that post war recovery period. So Don truly is the, you know, American millionaire relative to these other people.
 
So a tip that wouldn't be out of place on Fifth Avenue is excessive in Rome at this time.
And Don is oblivious to that fact, whereas Betty, from having lived and worked there, has a much better sense of the valuation of things and can see the inappropriateness of it.
 
Jenna: They both seem really pleased with the view, which is the actual view from a room in the Rome Hilton, according to the commentary.
 
And when Conrad Hilton calls the room to check in with them,
he hangs up without saying goodbye. And Betty gives the receiver a look. She notices that he's this quirky, slightly out-of-place success story, not unlike her husband.
 
Steve: Yeah, and his eccentricities, you know, are tolerated in a way that in polite society, for those further down the food chain, you know, you don't do that.
 
But once you rise to that entrepreneur,
you know, multimillionaire global business celebrity,
I suppose you don't have to sign off from your phone calls. You know, when you're done, you hang up. And the others just have to understand it.
 
I think it's another nice little touch of aspects of Conrad Hilton that as much as he's a desirable client, he brings his own challenges with him as well.
 
Jenna: A bit later, we see Betty and Don napping in their room, bells ringing outside.
It's a short shot, but it's so authentic. TV never shows real people sleeping when they arrive in a place with a time difference.
 
Steve: And I have to admit, you know, when I go overseas, one of my favorite things is that late afternoon nap.
Just trying to catch up and rest and to hear the bells of Rome chiming, really, I think helps set the mood for us as viewers that they're off on this amazing adventure in Rome.
 
Jenna: Back at home, Carla is not having an amazing adventure. She is staying with Betty's kids 24 7, including the new baby.
And now Francine drops off her kids to stay with Carla for an hour, too. Thanks for that, Francine.
 
Steve: It seems that Carla is almost working for Francine. It's not that she has the option to deny this request. It's Francine showed up and drops off her kids, and that's just the way it's going to be.
 
So I think it's another example of those power disparities we were talking about earlier, where there's language that suggests you have a choice, but you really don't.
 
 
Jenna: I think Betty Draper has a lot of iconic looks in this series,
but this might be the single most memorable one.
She's been to the hotel hairdresser, she's got a new dress, and she is undeniably gorgeous.
 
This show took home a lot of awards for acting and best series.
But this particular episode also won an Emmy for best hairstyling.
 
Steve: Yeah, January Jones is drop dead gorgeous throughout this episode. And this is probably the summit of that mountain in this particular scene.
 
I love the introduction of these two Italian men trying to hit on her and starting to talk to her. And then to their surprise, she speaks Italian and she calls the one on him not being a gentleman.
Just the whole scene is really fun and delicious as she's a little flirtatious with these guys or at least not telling them where to go and how to get there.
 
And then the American millionaire stranger walks out. He falls immediately into the role. And we have this fun little bit of dialogue between Betty and Don, unbeknownst to the two Italians that this is her husband.
And we can see their disappointment as this, you know, spectacularly exotic angel is slipping through their hands.
 
Jenna: Yankee, go home, they say to Don. [Laughing]
 
Steve: I also like that they call him ugly and old in Italian.
And he says, you know, are they talking about me? And are they making fun of me? And she says, yeah, a little bit.
 
Jenna: Don and Betty are so good at pretending.
It's fun and romantic as he joins her at her table. And even when the men leave really disgruntled, they keep up this act together.
 
He asks, so what brings you to Rome?
And he is every bit as smooth and attentive as we've seen him be with other women.
And it's so believable they would be into each other. They're both gorgeous, they're in this beautiful city, they're escaping the monotony of their regular lives.
 
And it feels like this is the life they both want to have all the time. You know, all the glamour and Emmy winning hair and no dry cleaning or sweltering August kitchens.
 
Steve: Yeah, and Lisa Albert makes a comment that there's a sadness because scenes like this really underline that truth that they once had this. This magic, this attraction, this compatibility.
 
And it's been lost over time. And maybe in this instant they reclaim it for a moment, but we know the history here and we know where this is headed. You do feel that tragedy in it.
 
Jenna: Right as their romance is rekindling,
Conrad Hilton shows up to interrupt, because of course he does.
He says to Don, by golly, you are an indecently lucky man.
And Don laughs and Betty smiles.
 
So in this scene, she's been noticed by multiple men and she's not sorry about it.
That's Betty.
 
Steve: And Betty loves that attention, that she's that drop dead gorgeous, that even the center of attention is shifted and has eyes for her in this moment.
 
The scene ends with them back in the hotel room.
They've had a nice evening. Betty's thrilled to be on Don's arm while he's wining and dining with Conrad Hilton. And then as things get romantic, it feels there's a real spark of passion and sexual attraction there for them.
So it's just been sort of a dream date in Rome.
 
Jenna: And it feels like they're both giving each other what they want.
So she kicks off her shoes and he looks at her and says, you're tiny.
And she smiles and says, conrad Hilton adores you.
 
So they're both saying what the other person wants most to hear. He's seeing her and valuing her in front of him,
and she's telling him that he's on track to success.
 
So this is a great cap for an evening together because there's none of this sniping back and forth or critiquing what you did or didn't do.
This is I see you and I value you, and both of them need that so much.
 
Steve: And there are no children to detract from it or to ruin the mood. You know, they're just the two of them here in Rome.
 
 
Jenna: Speaking of children,
back at home, we see Sally testing out, trying to be more like she thinks Betty is. She's trying on her mother.
 
While Francine's kids are playing at their house,
Sally and Ernie are sitting in the bathtub and he's pretending to drive.
Where are we going? She asks.
For ice cream, he says.
That's a grand idea, she says, which of course is not how she talks.
 
She leans over and kisses his cheek, which he doesn't like.
Bobby witnessed the whole thing, so he starts taunting Sally, who responds by straddling him and punching him, until Carla breaks it up.
 
Steve: He knows this is going to get under her skin. So I do get a kick out of Ernie's reaction because, you know, he's trying to make sense of this as Sally goes off to sort Bobby out.
 
Jenna: We see this over and over, that characters in this show try to be somebody else in their lives.
And it's normal, I think, to see kids try to act like their parents in some way.
 
But I also feel Sally's frustration with wanting attention for herself and not knowing how to go about getting it.
Betty has the same frustration and she has communicated through her actions over and over again to Sally that being pretty is the way to get what you want.
It's always more than that.
 
 
Back at Pete's building, Pete knocks on the neighbor's door with a brand new stain free dress to present to the au pair.
Aren't you a lucky girl, he says,
and she's so grateful and thanks him.
 
In the DVD commentary, Lisa Albert says that both of the key stories in this episode involve men coming in and saving women.
Henry in the council meeting for Betty, and Pete and the dress here.
 
And Vincent Karthiser in the commentary says that men get off on doing things to help people for the right reasons.
That right there is the part, though.
 
So he invites Gudrun to celebrate, and he offers all the German drinks he can think of, like beer and Riesling and schnapps.
You're so nice, she says, but I have my boyfriend.
Pete never thought about a boyfriend.
 
Steve: Yeah, he does seem to be fishing around for something greater than a peck on the cheek as a thank you here.
 
And it feels like she does reject him in that moment. She reads him correctly and she realizes she needs to get the dress and get that door closed.
And make sure he doesn't get in the apartment. She escapes his clutches, at least this time.
 
Jenna: At the beginning of the episode, Pete says to the office guys about Hildy,
Why is it that a man on his own is an object of pity, when she's the one you should feel sorry for?
 
And here he thinks that Gudrun should be an object of pity. He's in control. He has the status, and yet he's alone.
 
And so he needs something more than just the Davey and Goliath moral approach to being kind.
He needs some payback, because Pete Campbell.
 
 
Steve: Back in his own apartment, Pete pours himself a drink and goes on the balcony, probably so he can feel sorry for himself and enjoy the night air.
 
A while later, an obviously inebriated Pete knocks back at the door.
He says he wants to see the dress on her. She should let him in her apartment.
 
Jenna: I went to a lot of trouble to solve your dress problem, and I think I at least deserve to see it on you, he says.
She says, okay, but you have to be very quiet.
 
So it's not like she likes it, but she does allow him in again.
Women, when Pete shows up at your door late at night and he's had a few, you don't have to let that man in.
Just say no.
 
Steve: Yeah, and there's the power disparity we talked about earlier. So how much of that is making her feel pressured or what have you.
But, you know, he gets in the apartment, she goes to get the dress.
But it becomes very clear very quickly he's not interested at all in seeing the dress on her.
He stops her, closes the door, and then tells her that he would like to kiss her.
 
Jenna: She doesn't answer him. Her back is to the door.
He moves into her space.
 
We saw Henry doing that with Betty, but the reception is very different.
She doesn't say no or scream, but she never consents. She doesn't want this. This is totally a violation.
 
And from Pete, this is a retaliation for her rejection of him earlier.
It's her punishment for him feeling alone.
 
And we're going to see in a minute that her response to this is that she's going to cry all day. So nothing about this is what she wanted.
 
Steve: Yeah, I don't disagree with all that. And I think the power disparity here is so crucial to what? What is her power to say no?
You know, kind of like Carla at the door when Francine drops off her kids.
Does she really have the ability to say no, I don't think we'll do that.
 
All that said in the commentary, Lisa Albert, the main writer for this episode, said that she felt that she gave him permission - Gudrun gave Pete permission for this kiss, and that it is a mutual kiss.
 
Like Pete's not forcing himself physically on her at this point and she's not resisting or denying her consent actively.
You know, this is dangerous ground to get on and I'm not going to pretend that I know the answer, but I think myself as a viewer, I fell into that Lisa Albert camp in how I perceived it.
 
Again with the asterisk of this power disparity. And does the au pair feel she has any agency to say no here and to exercise that right?
 
Jenna: I think the way to frame the question is not is there resistance? I think the way to frame the question is is there consent? And there isn't.
 
 
Steve: We cut back to Rome. In the next scene, Don and Betty are laying in bed. The phone rings. Of course it's busybody Connie calling,
trying to get together for breakfast.
 
Don's going to consent to that. And then Betty, you know, mouths to him, you know, tell him no, they won't do breakfast.
 
Jenna: I love that, because usually it's Don canceling their social plans. And here it's Betty waving him off and Don has to make the excuse.
 
And we see Don saying, I like sleeping on this side of the bed, because they're on the opposite sides. I can't say their rules are reversed in Rome, but they are different people here for sure.
 
Steve: And Don takes his cue from Betty here. You know, he, he does tell Connie that they've already ordered breakfast, which, which is a fib. So they're going to have to do that.
 
Betty is just wearing a towel here in the morning light, but, you know, she's completely gorgeous, you know, in a, in a different way than sort of the glammed up Betty of the previous evening.
 
As Don goes off into the bathroom to start getting ready for his day, she follows him and drops the towel as she, she goes in. So obviously the passion and affection they're feeling for each other is carried over to the following day.
 
 
Jenna: Later, as we see Betty and Don arriving home late, Betty is happy to take the baby and smile at him.
Carla mentions that Sally had a display of temper after Bobby teased her for kissing Ernie.
And Betty registers that she says, okay, thank you for letting me know.
 
Don is not at all interested in whatever Carla has to say about their kids and he just leaves to go get the mail.
 
Steve: It is kind of a big jump, isn't it? From sort of round two in the morning in Rome to back to domesticity, dealing with, you know, the minor issue of what happened with Sally, and the handover of little baby Gene, back to Betty and Don absenting himself, you know, rather than getting the down low.
 
It's almost like switching a channel from this exotic, adventurous escape to back in the humdrum.
 
Jenna: I feel like that dress probably was worth round four.
Just saying.
 
 
The next day, Pete is dressed like an adult. He's eating dinner at the table. He's acting like he's got himself together when he hears his neighbor knocking.
 
This is Ed Lawrence from down the hall. The actor is Ned Vaughn. He has a lot of screen credits. I recognized him best from in the control room in Apollo 13. And he was Seaman Beaumont from The Hunt for Red October. He was also in Courage Under Fire, Yellowstone. and a bunch of other stuff.
 
The neighbor is very direct:
I spent one of my precious vacation days refilling the Kleenex boxes. Do you know how hard it is to find an au pair my wife can get along with?
I've had four quiet months without any tears.
Mr. Campbell, stay away from her. Stay out of the building.
 
And Pete denies and denies. He's happy to blame her. He says, I don't know what she said.
He's so ready to use his power and status to get what he needs. This neighbor is not having it.
 
Steve: But at the same time, this neighbor is not condemning what he did.
He's talking about a very specific circumstance of saying, hey, keep your bad behavior out of the building and, and stay out of my apartment specifically.
 
He's not looking to expose Pete more broadly, even though clearly he certainly has it in his power to do so.
This is a combination of, I think, sound advice and also some sort of camaraderie between the two of them to say, hey, you know, don't be stupid here, you know, because you're going to mess up things for me and for yourself.
 
Jenna: Yes, and it's absolutely shocking that that is the case, that he doesn't take issue with Pete cheating or abusing the girl. He's just wants to use his status and power to keep the peace and calm in his household.
 
Never mind that what Pete did is probably going to have an impact on her for years to come.
It could affect her relationship with her boyfriend. It could result in pregnancy, but neither of them have any care or thought for those consequences for her.
 
Steve: I think Pete's reaction really is an insight into his guilty conscience here. He knows he's done wrong. He's done wrong by Trudy. He's done wrong by this young girl.
 
He's initially worried about being held accountable by Ed Lawrence from 14C. Even once that risk goes away and it becomes clear what the message was, Pete is still left with his guilty conscience here.
 
 
Jenna: The next morning at the Drapers’, Bobby is flying an airplane around the breakfast table, calling Mayday, and Betty brings up the issue of fighting with Sally, after Carla spoke to her about it.
 
Sally immediately starts denying her behavior, much the way Pete did. But Betty insists on an apology, which Sally offers ,and Bobby accepts, and Betty smiles.
 
She also just wants peace in her house.
She doesn't care if they have an actual constructive relationship.
Bobby, to be fair, does not really seem very bothered by it. But Sally clearly has some things going on.
 
Steve: As Don goes out the door, he gives quite a warm goodbye to Betty as he sets out on his workday.
As he turns away from her, she's not looking particularly happy or satisfied at all. She looks like a prisoner who's just been put in her cell.
 
Jenna: Yes, this is their normal life again.
Betty and the kids are going swimming. Don's heading to work, but there are these little bits between them. Betty pulls out a cigarette and Don thoughtfully reaches over and lights it for her, and they smile at each other before he goes.
 
He seems to have some residual glow from their trip.
I agree with you. Her face seems like this is not enough for her anymore. This space is too small.
 
Steve: I think it also is probably symptomatic of the state of their relationship that there is not a longer enduring afterglow of this adventure to Rome.
 
To be there literally the next morning and be back at square zero. Or at least that's the perception I get from seeing Betty's face,
to me suggests, wow, these fissures and problems, they've not gone away.
 
You can't even gloss them over, you know, the instant the adventure ceases, you're back in the mundane day today, which does not float your boat.
 
 
Jenna: Over at Pete's building, Trudy has arrived home from being on vacation with her parents, and we see Gudrun coming in the elevator with two kids.
Trudy is super friendly to them and she's also really excited about being alone with Pete when they get to their apartment.
 
She kisses him, she missed him. He seems down, and she says, you always get that guilty look on your face when we see little children. I told you, I don't care.
So apparently she did let go of the adoption plan, even though we know having a baby is really important to her.
 
You're my husband. I want what you want, she tells him. And I feel like she's trying to mean it.
Pete looks positively sick. To his credit.
 
He sees this evidence of her love. She's given up her dream of having kids just to be with him. And he is a cheating weasel. He can't even look her in the eyes.
 
Steve: He really does look sick to his stomach here. And you get this sense of all his ethical failings landing on his head. Finally.
It feels like he should feel this awful, given how loving and thoughtful Trudy is to him.
I don't know - is this a sign of Pete Campbell turning a corner or making a change in his life?
 
Jenna: Lisa Albert in the commentary suggests that it is.
She suggests that this is where Pete falls in love with Trudy again.
 
So I think that will be an interesting thing for us to track going forward.
In this scene, though, Trudy can't miss it. She says, Peter, did something happen?
He doesn't say anything.
But she isn't a fool.
Except that she married Pete, I guess.
 
But otherwise,
she goes to her room and she slams the door. So it's not spoken, but they both understand.
She knows, and he knows she knows.
 
Steve: Oh, wow,
you're going that far on it. I didn't get that read.
 
I guess I'd have to rewatch it and take a little more close look at her departure. And I didn't catch a door slam either,
so that's interesting. You're in a slightly different place than I undid the scene.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Drapers’, Betty looks in her living room and she pauses when she faces the fainting couch.
She calls Sally in. And I noticed that in the living room, they sit on the regular couch together, not the fainting couch.
 
And this is such a weird speech she gives to Sally. What did you think about this?
 
Steve: Yeah, I think ostensibly it's this advice to her about, you know, don't go around kissing boys. Boys kiss you.
The first kiss is special. She's talking about herself and Henry here.
 
Maybe it has a bit of applicability to Sally and Ernie's situation, but it does feel like more, this is Betty talking about Betty.
 
In the later stages of her talk to Sally, seems to go off and take stock of life and saying that there are a lot of first kisses, and other kisses are a shadow of that first kiss.
 
In the commentary, they talk about this as being a moment where she's finally acknowledging to herself that Don and her no longer have that magic, that the kisses don't matter.
 
That seems an odd conclusion given the passion that they seem to have for each other in that moment in Rome.
What was your take?
 
Jenna: Yes. And when she says that every kiss after is a shadow of that first kiss, it is clear she's talking about how her kisses with Don are less special. They seem to be very special when they were in Rome, but now that they've returned, it suddenly isn't.
 
And it also seems clear that that first kiss with Henry meant something important. They're not strangers.
But none of this is helpful to Sally at all.
And it feels very grim if all of your kisses are downhill after the first one. I don't love that for us. That seems just as dark as some of the things Don has said to various people.
 
Steve: Betty's life is in a pretty grim place. If we accept that she's not happy being a domestic housewife. She's not interested in raising her children.
 
You know, she's got this philandering husband that she knows that's the case, and she's no longer in love with him or falling out of love with him.
And she's got this exciting new man who obviously is very into her and very forward and open about his passion for her, and she's feeling that excitement. It just feels like a very dark hole that Betty's found herself in at this point.
 
And even this little getaway fantasy in Rome can do nothing to resolve those issues that are really at the core and at the heart of her day to day.
 
Jenna: I agree it is a very dark speech, and it does help us understand more about where Betty's headspace is, even though I think poor Sally could use an actual conversation centered around her needs.
 
And this is not that this is a smaller point, but at the beginning of this talk, Betty says the first kiss is special. It's where you go from being a stranger to knowing somebody.
And I get we're talking about Henry, but isn't that a weird thing to say?
I mean, is there no space between stranger and kiss - ready?
I just - I don't think Betty or Don are going to be giving any parenting classes anytime soon.
 
 
That afternoon, when Pete comes home from work,
Trudy is determined to talk about mundane things. A new fruit market, the cold salads.
 
But Pete pauses her and he says, Trudy, I don't want you to go away anymore without me.
And she looks right at him then and says, good. I won't.
 
This, to me, really suggests that she understands what's happened here.
Betty pretended to herself, but Trudy is not pretending. She's just going to box it up and move forward with this man because after this, she gives him a real smile and she asks him about work.
I feel like this is some very loving forgiveness from Trudy to Pete.
 
Steve: Yeah, she's very committed to this relationship and all in on it. And, you know, with a flawed partner like Pete Campbell, I think really taxes her. Her intentions here. And she makes it clear she is fully committed.
So, you know, you feel that Pete is very fortunate to have a partner like Trudy.
 
Jenna: And just to amplify his childishness, Pete's story about work is that Kinsey invented a contraption to shoot a water balloon across the office, and they filled it with ketchup.
Pete is out there making a difference every day.
 
 
Steve: The next scene is Francine and Betty talking about Betty's trip to Rome recently.
But I think we get this sense that both women are talking about something a lot bigger in terms of their life and where they are and where they've been.
 
Jenna: Yes. Francine says she and Carlton went to Lake George. No problems, no kids. It was magical.
 
And she also reveals that the city council reversed their decision about the reservoir. So all the work that Betty built toward that effort was wasted, unless she was only intentionally doing that as an excuse to talk to Henry in the first place.
 
So, as Francine kind of suggests, it's a flirtation, because Francine definitely noticed their looks they were exchanging. She says, well,
maybe this could be an excuse to get more help from high places. And Betty says, no, I'm done with that.
 
I do not get the sense that Betty is done with Henry Francis. I get the sense that Betty is done with community water issues.
 
Steve: Yeah, I think the interest in Henry endures long after the Pleasantville reservoir has gone away.
 
 
Jenna: When Don comes home, he's happy to see her, but Betty is all business and a bit crabby. She says, I hate our friends in this town.
And he says, oh, we'll go away again, Bets.
But things can't be good only when they're away. It doesn't work like that.
 
So there is this reality of the frustration that's always between them since the series has started.
 
Steve: And I think Don's suggestion is very much in alignment with Francine's. Oh, we'll just book your next escape.
Go escape this dull world and then come back to this dull world.
 
And it seems very clear this is not going to work for Betty. She's not signing up for that anymore.
So, again, in this world where we talk about, oh, you know, Betty's growing up and not being so childish.
 
It feels to me like Don and Francine are the ones who are being a little more childish in terms of seek a temporary escape from your dreary day to day.
Whereas Betty seems to have aspirations of saying, I want to change my day to day and get that closer to that ideal, rather than just live for the escape, you know, every so often.
 
Jenna: And Don reveals that he bought her a gift. It's a mini Colosseum for her charm bracelet.
It's lovely, she says, but she doesn't seem thrilled.
 
I can have something to look at when I tell the story about the time I went to Rome, she says, and that feels like her adventures are all over.
 
As a viewer, I'm very surprised to see Betty's reaction to that because it does seem like the kind of thing that would please Betty, and that Don was being thoughtful when he got it for her because they did have such a nice time together.
 
And here he is bringing her this souvenir of this amazing getaway that was really focused on the two of them for a change,
and yet it does nothing for her.
 
Lisa Albert, in the commentary, says that this souvenir charm bracelet diminishes the Colosseum into something very small,
which I thought was a really great comment.
 
And Matthew Weiner says that for Betty, their trip magnified what wasn't there in her relationship.
 
Steve: And along those exact same lines, I think it's that absence now that that's the change Betty's seeking to address that absence. And you can't wallpaper it over. You can't take a placebo.
 
You can't fly off to Rome to escape it. It's at the heart of things for her, and she's got to address it unbeknownst to Don Draper, because I think from Don's perspective, he would be perfectly fine with the status quo.
 
He's got his escapes for when the day to day becomes dreary and he decides to check out or not come home for the night or whatever,
and then he can have the nice, you know, Roman getaway with his gorgeous wife and enjoy that time.
 
And I really feel like a door has been closed with Betty at this point, and she's not going back to it.
 
Jenna: Yes, I agree. And Weiner says, we talked about that this episode is Pete falling in love with Trudy again, and Betty falling out of love with Don, even though Pete is the one who cheats.
 
And this is pivotal for the series because it's really where Betty stops trying to impress Don and make everything work with him, and decides there is something better out there for her life.
 
And when Trudy isn't there holding Pete up just for a weekend or a month or whatever it is, you can see Pete's self destruction.
So arguably the same would be true should Betty decide to leave Don.
 
Steve: It's a good question. And I mean it's a rewatch show so we know the arc of the characters. But I wish I could remember my take on this at this moment the first time through, because I think that's a great question.
 
Can Don Draper endure and exist without Betty Draper? Like how critical or non critical is she to his existence and his life? And I guess we're going to find that out in the subsequent episodes and seasons.
 
Jenna: Well, remember the grand gesture apology letter he wrote her says,
I know you won't be alone very long, but without you I will be alone forever.
 
So I don't know if it's him trying to make that come true or if that's just a sweet nothings kind of thing that he's writing to convince her or if he believes that about himself.
 
Steve: I think I would fall on the latter there if I had to assess it. Don Draper has no trouble meeting people.
Don Draper has relationships with people.
 
The relationships end, but there's always another one on the horizon.
And to say that, oh, per his words, without Betty, then he'll be alone forever.
In many ways he seems somewhat alone at present.
 
So I guess I struggle to understand what's the difference between being alone with Bobbie Barrett or Rachel or Midge or Betty Draper.
 
Jenna: I had wanted to mention, and I should have mentioned it in our last episode, but if you go back to Bobbie Barrett and we talk about her and the art of negotiation, she talks about its hand to hand combat and she enjoys it so much.
 
And here in season three, we see this other character, Conrad Hilton, who also seems to really enjoy the negotiation part of it and Don resisting that piece of it. So it's an interesting challenge for him.
 
This isn't a sexual relationship, but it is a new relationship that is pulling time away from Betty and that is keeping him interested and curious with something that's new intellectually.
 
So he is operating in a way that is somewhat similar to Bobbie Barrett, which is an interesting comparison because I hadn't really thought about them in the same way before.
 
The closing song is There's a Small Hotel by Rogers and Hart, about two people wanting to escape their daily lives and be alone together.
 
 
We'd like to give a listener shout out today to Sue S. from Ashland, Oregon. Thank you so much for following us on social media and supporting our show.
 
And with Mad Men streaming on additional services now, we'd appreciate any word of mouth shares for our podcast so more Mad Men fans can rewatch with us!
 
 
Steve: That's it for this episode of All Things Mad Men, From Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, Mad Men C to Z dot com to vote for your favorite Sterling lines and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
Jenna: You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at Mad Men C to Z, and please listen, like, and subscribe. That's what the podcast's for!
 
Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.