Mad Men C to Z Podcast Transcript for S3E12: The Grown-Ups

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Mad Men C to Z Podcast Transcript for S3E12: The Grown-Ups

Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
 
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each rewatch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men C to Z.
 
Jenna: Hey everybody, we're talking about Mad Men Season 3 Episode 12: The Grown-Ups.
This episode was written by Brett Johnson and Matthew Weiner, and directed by Barbet Schroeder.

Steve: The episode kicks off with Pete asleep on his sofa.
He's all bundled up in the office. The heating isn't working.
Hildy wakes him up and gives him some hot cocoa.
Posh Pete complains that it's made with water, not with milk.
 
Jenna: I do like that even Pete realizes he's being impossible with his complaints and he actually apologizes to Hildy.
It's a little bit of a grown up moment for Pete, after an icky one.
 
When Pete heads to Lane's office, he learns that Ken will be vice president in charge of account services, while he will be head of account management.
So Pete lost the battle with Ken this season.
 
Steve: Ambitious Pete is obviously upset with this, but he takes it pretty well. He stays professional. He asks if it was a close competition.
He makes his case again why he feels that he shouldn't be the one to lose. It's about as professional as we see Pete.
 
Jenna: Yes, again, he's reasonably grown up as he gets this news and we've seen him be very not grown up about it.
 
Pete has wanted this job for three seasons and here's another rejection.
Lane is honest with him. He articulates something true about the difference between Pete and Ken:
He says that Pete is good at meeting clients needs, but Ken has the gift of making them feel like they don't have any needs.
 
In other words, you can see Pete working at his job while Ken's manner makes it seem effortless.
 
Steve: Now, once Pete's out of Lane's office, he does collect his things, tells Hildy he's not feeling well and goes home to have a good pout.
 
Jenna: Before that though, as he's headed back to that office with his head down, he has a moment where he catches Ken's eye.
 
Ken is helping a secretary with a cord under a desk when their eyes meet. This is the first time they've seen each other since they've known the news that Ken came out on top.
 
And it seems so true to form, even in this small moment, that Ken is helping somebody else and being friendly, while Pete is hunched over and concerned with his own issues.
In that moment, it really captures the difference between them.
 
 
Next we get a scene with Peggy and her roommate Karen. We haven't seen them together since Peggy used Joan's ad to find a roommate. And here we learn that Peggy has kept her involvement with Duck and Karen's not a fan of his.
We aren't really, I think, either.
 
Peggy and Duck are both ambitious. They both prioritize work over relationships.
But it feels more like a what are you doing? thing than an oh yay, I'm so happy for them kind of a thing.
 
Steve: You know, we know Karen is sort of that stereotypical city girl looking for fun and adventure in the city. It is kind of ironic that she's disapproving of Peggy's fun with Duck.
 
Jenna: And she has this comment when she finds out that Duck isn't married and she's like, oh, well then why are you with him?
 
 
The next scene takes us to Mona and Margaret and they're preparing for Margaret's wedding.
Margaret's upset because Jane has given her an extravagant gift of Van Cleef earrings and she's offering marital advice to Margaret.
 
Mona is really a grown up here. She doesn't say unkind things about Jane or Roger, but Margaret's really having a tantrum.
 
Steve: It really seems to be a scene where both Roger and Mona are unified in their efforts to manage Margaret and get her out of her funk. It seems like she's having the pre wedding jitters or cold feet.
 
They're very unified and it seems like a good partnership, good comedic value. When Roger's saying horrible things to Mona, Mona is translating into positive and constructive advice for Margaret.
 
Everybody knows the move to Jane was a terrible decision by Roger and this scene seems to just underline that truth that Mona and Roger are well matched, a good partnership, and there was no reason for idiot Roger to tear this asunder.
 
It is all on Roger's shoulders here. This never would have happened had it been up to Mona.
 
Jenna: And in the wreckage of Mona and Roger's relationship, Margaret finally does admit yes, she does want to go through with the wedding.
She does not come across as especially likable here. It feels like she inherited a lot of Roger's spoiled selfishness.
 
Steve: Yeah, agreed. Margaret seems like a spoiled rich girl here.
You know, getting married that young, I think anybody would have second thoughts about it.
But she does make it difficult to feel much empathy for her.
 
Jenna: So after the phone call with Margaret and Mona, Jane gets home and Roger critiques her for talking to Margaret, or contacting her and sending her expensive gifts.
 
This is Jane's way of trying to befriend Margaret and to make things less tense. And Roger points out she's actually making it worse.
And then Jane basically throws a tantrum of her own, saying everything you do is for her, meaning Margaret, and she huffs away and she slams the door.
 
And based on how they're both behaving, I feel like Jane and Margaret actually should get along pretty well.
It's sometimes said that women marry their fathers, but it feels like Roger married his daughter, at least in terms of how petulant and entitled Jane is.
 
Steve: It really does seem that way. He can't escape that petulant younger woman. In the case of his daughter, he's got some responsibility for how he chose to raise her,
and now he has full responsibility for choosing to go with Jane.
 
Jenna: And Roger fought and fought with Margaret over this, insisting that Jane had to come to the wedding. But that's not enough for Jane.
 
And based on what we know about her in terms of how she interacted with Joan in the office,
I think we can guess that Jane really likes to keep score and be the favorite.
 
And we can see that this partnership between Jane and Roger, the one he was defending to Annabelle, unlike the one he still maintains with Mona, it isn't a romantic fantasy in their day to day life and it isn't a constructive partnership, the way we can see he's still hanging onto with Mona - at least some shreds of it, in terms of how they support their daughter.
 
Steve: When could it be a constructive partnership?
Maybe 20 years from now when Jane is no longer in her early 20s and has, you know, lived a full life, had children and all the rest to get to the place in her life where Mona clearly is, she's the best possible partner for Roger. But he blew that up.
 
Jenna: When Trudy gets home, she finds Pete eating leftovers out of a casserole dish. She's very careful as she asks about what happened.
And Pete's summary is Kenny got something and he didn't. That's all he heard.
 
Steve: Trudy's impressive to me in this scene because first she has to draw out what happened about Pete failing to get the promotion,
and then she has to manage him. And manage – first, find out what he did. In reaction to that, she then starts giving him advice and direction about how to proceed from this point.
 
Pete is just wallowing in self pity here, but Trudy is mission focused and it's such a striking contrast between the two of them.
 
Getting back to Mona being a good partner for Roger and managing Margaret, it feels like here, for all his faults,
Pete's got a very good partner in Trudy, and she's completely on his side and trying to help him make the best decisions and choices professionally to further his own career.
 
Jenna: I see that, too. The whole time Trudy is supportive and absolutely mission focused on Pete's success.
To me, she's very similar to the way that Joan handles Greg,
but with more buttering up, and I think more genuine affection, too.
 
Like Greg, Pete dismisses Trudy. At one point he tells her to stop it with the Ellery Queen. That's a series of mystery detective books.
 
But I like how she takes the cold leftover casserole dish from him. At the end of the scene, he's sitting there eating his sadness, and she picks him up and removes that.
It's like she's reminding him he's better than that.
 
Steve: Pete does have a very childlike quality here in his self pity in this scene.
 
 
Jenna: That night when Betty wakes to the sound of the baby crying, she looks over and sees Don's not in bed.
 
We're so used to him being gone, it's a bit of a shock when she goes into the baby's room and Don is rocking baby Gene.
He's ended things with Suzanne, and it seems like he is recommitting to Betty and the family.
 
Why do you think he didn't stick it out with Suzanne? I think she probably would have forgiven him for the botched getaway car thing.
 
Steve: I really agree with that. And I guess in some ways it feels to me she's not quite a full character in the way some of the other women that Don's had affairs have been.
You know, Midge and Bobbie Barrett, had their own agendas and we were very clear of sort of what they were looking fo,  and what else was going on in their life. And they challenged Don Draper in ways.
 
I don't get that out of the Suzanne character. In many ways she seems a somewhat simplified, almost male fantasy mistress. You know, she asks very little and (is) beautiful and attentive and caring.
 
In that context of her as that type of character,
maybe a Don Draper feeling sorry for himself would turn back to her because he knows he's going to get that care and attention and focus on himself.
 
Why doesn't he go back to her?
I think at this point, Don Draper realizes his marriage is in real jeopardy.
So he's on his best behavior and leaning into the marriage and being present.
Why do you think he's finished with Suzanne?
 
Jenna: I think it makes a lot of sense that he is leaning into his relationship with Betty yet again.
And I also think it makes sense when you think about the Ann Margret comparison: Don used the words “She's pure. It makes your heart hurt,” when he was looking at and Margaret's performance of the Bye Bye Birdie song and Peggy was like, what is this?
 
And when he first was talking with Suzanne in the car, he said something about, who are you? Are you dumb or are you pure?
So I think the writers drew that comparison.
 
And I also get the sense from Matthew Weiner's comments in the commentary, but also in some of his interviews that he sees Suzanne as this sort of pure, spirited, nurturing kind of a character, even though I don't know that the Mad Men fandom sees her that way.
 
I think the idea is that, as you were saying, Don sees her as this uncomplicated fantasy and she doesn't demand things from him.
And just as Ann Margret's on the screen and you can love her and imagine and impose all these beliefs onto her, and not have to look at her as a real human being until her brother shows up and she starts wanting to go places in public with you, and have an actual regular human relationship.
 
And then it starts to be complicated. Just the way that Roger and Mona's relationship got complicated, and just the way that Don and Betty's relationship has gotten complicated, and that's a lot less fun.
 
It's interesting that Don is able to turn around and try to reinvest in his relationship with Betty again here.
And I think Betty did show Don some empathy when she learned about the truth. So it feels like maybe they're kind of resetting at this point.
 
Steve: With regard to Suzanne,
she had expressed interest in something more and sort of getting swept up in the affair.
And we know that Don Draper's response to that was,
hey, I'll take you to Mystic.
 
I wonder if there's maybe an element that Don Draper is quite happy to terminate that relationship just because it was starting to get into that complicated, difficult phase.
 
The first blush of the pure passion was giving way to the gritty realities and trade offs and demands of a relationship. Maybe it's a convenient stopping point for Don Draper.
 
With the revelations to Betty, it does feel like he's recommitted to that relationship in a way that perhaps he wasn't prior to her discovery of the box.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, where everyone once was cold, now everyone is way too hot.
 
In the commentary, Matt Weiner makes a point of saying,
this thing with the temperature is supposed to be an indicator of this idea of the grownups, of the people in charge,
that really the systems are all out of whack and you can't trust the systems around you.
 
And of course, things are about to get very unsettling.
 
Steve: It is kind of funny the way Duck tries to convince Peggy to have a nooner with him. He tells her she can order a Monte Cristo sandwich from room service.
 
And Peggy's sort of coming up with excuses about needing to meet with Kurt and Smitty.
But in the end, when she hangs up, you know, she tells Paul she has to go to the printer’s.
And it makes me laugh when Paul says, you know, he knows a nooner when he sees one.
 
Jenna: Yes. Paul is in Peggy's office when Duck is calling, wanting to meet her over lunch.
And her excuse to Paul about going to the printer, that's the same one Don used when he was going out to meet with women during the day.
So Peggy has definitely heard Don use this excuse before, and now she's putting it to use.
 
 
Across the office,
Pete goes into Harry's office to talk things through.
“I found out that head of accounts is going to Kenny in his haircut,” Pete says. Pete is the only one who calls him Kenny, and it feels like an attempt to diminutize him.
 
And Harry and Pete are always keeping track of where they are in the food chain and who has more toys.
Of course, Harry can't hear Pete being worried about his future in the company without complaining himself. He says, “I'm gonna die at this desk unnoticed.”
 
Steve: It is a funny combination to have Harry and Pete's neurotic mentalities taking place in parallel and almost talking past each other as they both gripe and worry about their futures at Sterling Cooper.
 
 
Jenna: Across the office, Don visits Lane, complaining that he won't allow him to hire a new art director. This candidate was too expensive.
 
In so many scenes in this episode up to this point, it feels like we're back to square one in the series, in some ways:
Peggy has a secret relationship with a guy from work who's not a good idea.
Don is frustrated by accounts.
Pete got turned down for the top job.
Betty's at home with the kids.
Everything's in the place where we've known it to be.
 
Steve: I think there are a lot of parallels there. But I also think there's a precariousness to where these characters are at the current time.
 
Take the marriage. You know, it wasn't on the razor's edge,
but we've got this pressure created by the Dick Whitman box, and we don't know where that's going to lead.
 
And then we also knew Duck was courting Peggy to come join him at his firm.
So the affair's continuing. But I wonder, you know, is there an angle there where Duck is also hopeful to lure Peggy over professionally?
 
 
Jenna: And across town, Peggy arrives at Duck's hotel room.
He's been watching the news on tv, but he unplugs the TV before he answers the door and lets her in.
 
Steve: In his commentary, Matt Weiner talks about this was a true story that he had heard from someone who had become aware that something had happened in Dallas to JFK,
but had a nooner scheduled and did unplug the television so that it wouldn't ruin his little time with this woman.
 
And then after it was over, could then plug in the TV and get caught up on whatever the events were.
 
 
Jenna: We get some quick shots back at the office with Don and Lane arguing about the art director.
Back to Harry and Pete talking about if they wanted to fire you, they would have fired you.
And the JFK news is on the TV between them.
They're just focused on their corporate ascent, or lack thereof.
 
Steve: And going back to the theme that Weiner talked about of who's in charge, where are the authorities . . .
This discussion between Lane and Don, I think, hearkens to that because Lane sort of throws out to Don, you know, do you want to call St. John?
 
Don clearly isn't going to call across the pond about something like hiring an art director he wants. But he does say he's going to go talk to Bert Cooper, and that that Bert Cooper still has some authority left in this company.
Who's in charge, you know, who's running the asylum right now.
It seems that the inmates are not necessarily happy about the decisions being taken.
 
It is amazing to think that Harry and Pete can be having their personal discussion whilst this nation-shaking story is just starting to break on the TV.
But I like the writing here because you don't have the benefit of hindsight to know how significant this is going to be.
 
So it's going to take a bit until enough of the facts seep out to get in your head. So you realize, oh, my goodness, something terrible has occurred.
But soon enough they're going to realize that this shockwave is spreading across the nation.
 
Jenna: It takes a crew of colleagues coming into Harry's office where they can watch the TV and see the news that John F. Kennedy has been shot.
 
We see Betty at home watching the news on TV, and Carla rushes in asking for news.
He died, Betty tells her, and they both sit on the couch next to each other, crying.
In this moment, Betty and Carla seem more like equals than they ever have, united in their grief.
 
And the kids see them this way.
And Sally comes over and puts her arm around Betty, looking at her, not at the TV.
 
Steve: And that seems like a funny switching of roles there because,
you know, you expect the adults to comfort the children. The children aren't particularly upset because I don't think they understand or appreciate what's occurred.
 
But this neglect of the children in that emotional moment where Carla as well, who in the past has done a good job of picking up the slack when Betty's neglected the kids, they are both so knocked off their feet,
Sally is the one who comes over and puts her arm on Betty's shoulders.
 
Jenna: I see people sometimes online in Mad Men forums asking if everyone really had this reaction to JFK's death, and how it would be shocking, but that they might not cry themselves because it's not as if they knew him personally, that kind of thing.
 
I know my parents remembered where they were when they first heard about JFK, likening it to 9 /11.
And of course, America had been through Pearl Harbor and other difficult times.
What do you think it is that made everybody stop and grieve together in this moment?
 
Steve: It's before my time, so it's hard to know. I think there's something personal about this young, handsome president,
this shockingly personal act of violence that took place.
 
I think it was just a more innocent time, from what I can gather.
And it was just such a shockingly horrifying event that nobody anticipated or ever considered in our world today, where, you know, for example, the US President would never travel in an open car.
That's one of the lessons learned from 1963.
 
So I think, in a way, almost like pre 9 / 11, the idea that you could go up and talk to pilots and go into the cockpit of an aircraft full of people flying,
in hindsight, that just seems crazy.
 
And I think it speaks to the mentality at the time. So I think for me, it's the human aspect, because I do remember 9 /11.
I think with the President,
you have this sense that you know this individual in some ways or are just aware of them as a human being.
 
I would love to climb in the heads of people at the time, to see it through their eyes, to understand it better.
 
 
Jenna: Peggy and Duck are in the hotel room, and when he turns the TV back on, he sees Walter Cronkite speaking through tears, saying that President Kennedy died.
 
And Duck's reaction is to want to call his kids.
And I remember that on 9/11 I remember wanting to call you, even though we were both safe.
But just that sense of being untethered by this news and needing to connect, to feel safe.
 
Peggy is shocked, but she doesn't seem to have that reaction about needing to call somebody.
 
Steve: And it is an interesting parallel, I think, to reactions I saw on 9/11 where I was at the office, and there were some people just working away who it seemed that they had somehow compartmentalized it and were just getting on with their job.
 
Maybe part of that was an escape from what was obviously terrible news.
I know for me personally, I just felt disoriented and confused and unable to focus on the work, trying to grapple with what are the implications of what's just happened, what else is going to happen?
You know, where will this lead us?
Those thoughts are happening simultaneously.
 
 
Jenna: Bridezilla Margaret is the only one crying over herself instead of JFK, as we get a shot of her sobbing in her wedding dress and her mother is trying to reassure her.
It was supremely unlucky timing for a wedding.
 
Steve: When it comes to Don Draper, he doesn't have that reaction of grief and horror. And, you know, we've seen him in a few crisis type situations and he seems somewhat emotionally detached.
And I wonder, is that because Don Draper had a very tough upbringing and he's wired and trained to react in tough circumstances,
or is it just a product of his life?
 
I mean, you know, what happened to him in Korea was a real shock, and life went on.
When the going gets tough and others are starting to spiral or spin in circles or wallow. Don Draper doesn't seem to devote much energy to all that.
 
Jenna: No, his way of dealing with anything difficult is to move forward.
When Don comes home from work, the TV is on, and Betty and the kids are watching.
I can't stop crying, Betty tells him. And they hug. They do have a safe moment of connection.
 
But his first question is, why are the kids watching this?
So while others are pausing and reflecting, Don isn't about that.
Remember, he told Betty in season one that mourning was just extended self pity when she was remembering her mother.
 
He tells Betty to take a pill and lie down, which reeks of condescension Every woman I know is made calmer by a man suggesting she calm down, right.
But she goes.
 
And then he talks to the kids. And I feel like he does an okay job with this. He opens with his standard line,
everything's gonna be okay.
We have a new president. And we're all going to be sad for a little bit,
but you can see how the kids don't have sufficient background knowledge to process this when Bobby asks, are we going to go to the president's funeral?
 
It's so little that the adults are spending time with the kids to talk about this earth shattering changing news.
 
Steve: I think, too, children feed off the adults.
So does a child really understand the significance of the American president being assassinated?
 
Perhaps not. But when you see your mother and your housekeeper so clearly moved and upset about it,
especially when you're a little older like Sally is compared to Bobby, I think you can get some of that negative energy that leaks onto them.
 
So I like that Don Draper spares some words to try and manage the kids and reassure them in the moment.
As you were laying out sort of what happens in the scene, I was thinking maybe Don's way of coping is just the management and devoting his energy to tangible steps.
 
Saying the right thing, or getting people pointed in the right direction,
maybe that's his way of both moving forward, and also coping with the emotions, which you may not know how to react emotionally, but you know, hey, my kids need reassurance in this moment, or need to stop sitting there in front of the TV.
 
The irony here is when he questions Betty about letting the kids sit there and watch it, and after comforting them, he plops down on the sofa to soak in the events of the day.
And the kids are still seated there with him.
 
Jenna: Yes. So not only have the kids been registering this change in Betty and Carla,
but they've also been watching the news nonstop, because it appears that's what Betty's been doing.
 
And when Don goes upstairs to bed, Betty is asleep with the radio on. She just can't get enough information.
And I notice he takes one of her pills himself before he goes to bed.
 
Steve: Yeah, yeah, I think Don grabs a couple pills.
 
Jenna: So calm down, Don.
 
And Betty's still watching the news with the kids the next day.
She's in her dressing gown. But Don is still planning to go to Margaret's wedding. This is a totally typical move forward moment for Don.
 
I found a New York Times article that checked on this question when this Mad Men episode aired, and they found that no New York city weddings on November 23, 1963, were canceled, although other events like the Junior League's Debutante Ball the next week were.
 
And it was true that couples who did get married that day remember dealing with a fair number of absent guests.
 
We've had a lot of conflicts between Betty and Don, and this one seems pretty minor.
Don saying, I can't sit in front of the TV all day.
And before, with her mother, Don made it seem like Betty was unusual to want to talk about her grief.
 
And now, with the whole country seeming to be in mourning, Don is more the odd one out, while Betty is part of the more common response, watching TV and trying to make sense of the news with limited information.
 
Steve: I know personally, I kind of relate to the Don Draper approach, because neither of my parents had any time for feeling sorry for oneself,
so in the midst of pain or loss, they would get working.
 
And the way I perceive it in myself is it's not that I'm not grieving or feeling the pain or needing time to process,
but it's almost like an escape or a diversion of my mind to focus on those things that are controllable that I can knock out on my own and let that pain percolate in the background.
 
And not that it's never going to come forward,
but just knowing that it's there and there's no urgency for it to come forward in the moment so I can escape a little bit mentally, emotionally, and then circle back to it.
 
 
Jenna: At their apartment, Trudy's ready to go to the wedding, and Pete is the one sitting in front of the TV.
I think we've compared Pete and Betty to each other quite a bit in the past, so it kind of makes sense that they would have similar approaches.
 
He's upset because he didn't get the top accounts job, but he is also disturbed by the assassination and the fallout.
It's one thing to go and act like I don't hate them, he says.
It's another to act like the President hasn't been murdered.
 
And Trudy is practical.
She pushes him to go. It's his boss's daughter's wedding, after all.
And he says it's a spoiled brat's wedding, which, let's point out, is really funny coming from Pete.
 
And he goes on to relate things that people in the office said about JFK,
about how the man had a lot of enemies, or how Harry Crane was thinking about the commercials that wouldn't be airing because of the news coverage.
 
Steve: This is another example of this partnership between Pete and Trudy. We can see they share the same political beliefs as Matt Weiner in his commentary calls it, this paternalistic FDR sort of liberal strain of thought.
 
Pete and Trudy are well aligned here, and they're aware that there are a bunch of people at Sterling Cooper who weren't especially fond of JFK who would not consider themselves Democrats by any stretch.
So they seem to unify here.
 
And ironically, since the prior scene where Trudy was trying to bolster Pete and, you know, get his head out of the casserole when she came home,
now it feels like Pete is carrying the day in making the argument, you know, we don't have to go to this spoiled brat's wedding. And besides, these people are saying that in not so many words that JFK got what he deserved.
 
And we can see Trudy's anger building here.
And in the end, she gets onto the sofa and nestles in beside Pete and kicks off her shoes. So Pete's won the argument here of not going to the wedding.
 
Jenna: Yes. When they both decide not to go, it's a protest of this ugly thing that's happened. And it's funny to see Pete and Trudy representing changing times, that they no longer necessarily believe in authority figures.
 
Pete's comment about Lyndon Johnson, well, nobody voted for him. He's more of the same kind of thing. That's a big mind shift for Pete, because he sucks up to the people above him with shocking regularity.
 
And it is kind of funny that old money Pete is seeming to be more anti establishment here.
 
Steve: Yeah, it is an interesting juxtaposition because he is a Northeastern liberal.
He is part of high society.
 
One other thing I'll mention that I've read over the years is that this whole myth of Camelot and that perception was very,
very heavily pushed after the assassination.
 
And I've read a number of accounts which suggest that it is actually a retroactive creation to instill a sense that there was this notion of Camelot, and this myth around it that may or may not actually have permeated this, the culture prior to the killing.
 
The writing here touches a little bit on that reality that the country was divided.
He had won election by a relatively small margin.
And major issues like the civil rights movement were very divisive. And there were a lot of people opposed for a lot of different reasons to any sort of federal government involvement or legislation by the federal government to address these issues.
 
 
Jenna: The scene shifts to Margaret's wedding.
And with Pete and Trudy gone, finally Jennifer Crane gets to sit at Don and Betty's table,
which is something she really wanted at Roger's garden party earlier this season.
 
She works for the phone company, so there's a little bit of dialogue about how with the news of Kennedy, it was truly impossible to get calls through at the time.
 
Steve: And it's an interesting time capsule that even in the age of landlines, that you could swamp the network to the point where now calls can't go through. There's just too much demand.
 
And obviously a shocking incident like this stresses that you have a sense that the wedding is every bit the disaster that Margaret was bemoaning.
You know, they're consolidating the tables at the front.
Roger makes a joke about there not being any waiters there to get the food for people.
He's bravely putting the best face on it and making the best of it.
But the train has gone off the rails here.
 
Jenna: Roger is being a total grown up here. We have seen him manage clients, but here he doesn't have a team.
And there's no woman making his life smoother for him. There's no Mona, no Joan,
no Jane.
 
And he's not ignoring the problem, but he is charming the guests. He's making them more comfortable as much as possible,
even though this large room is about half empty.
 
Also, maybe the lesson in Mad Men is that if you want cake, you should not host an event for your daughter, because Mona informs Roger that the cake isn't coming, just like Sally Draper didn't get her birthday cake in season one.
 
In spite of all of this, though, Margaret does seem very happy,
a picture of what you would expect a bride to be.
 
Steve: She does. And I wonder if that's just,
you know, she is the center of attention.
So although there's perhaps fewer guests than had been intended,
she's still in the spotlight. This is her moment.
Maybe that's something to be salvaged from this, this sort of disaster day.
 
Jenna: Betty, at her table at the wedding, sees Henry come in with a young woman and you can tell she wasn't expecting to see him.
 
When they go to greet Margaret and Brooks, Betty hears this woman refer to Henry as Daddy, and she goes on to compare Margaret to Natalie Wood, who by 1963 had starred in Splendor in the Grass, West Side Story, and Gypsy.
 
She overhears Brooks telling Henry they're honored to have him there so he's recognized as an important person.
And we have to think if Henry were in a less prestigious job, I think he would hold a lot less interest for Betty.
 
Steve: Oh, that's kind of a tough take on Betty's interest in Henry. You think his status is a major attraction for her?
 
Jenna: Do you not think his status is a major attraction for her?
 
Steve: I don't think it's unattractive to her, but I don't think the status has anything to do with how she got on his radar screen.
 
Jenna: We'll get to this. I think she has plenty of reasons to be dissatisfied with the status quo,
but I can't imagine Henry being some newbie at a fur company at this point to be able to turn her head.
 
No matter his charm,
his attention to her,
his looks, his stability,
his safety, all of those things certainly contribute.
 
But this is Betty Draper. And image matters to her. And that prestige,
that's a thing.
 
Steve: Agreed.
 
Jenna: So Ken, Jane, Bert, and Harry are watching news on a small TV back in the kitchen during the wedding.
 
And this is so funny to me because Roger fought countless battles with Margaret over whether Jane could come to the wedding. And now Jane is voluntarily hiding in the kitchen to watch the TV, completely away from Margaret.
 
Steve: Yeah, and Roger's not happy about it, so he's trying to get her out of there, but he can't boss her around and make her do what he wants.
So in the end, he asks Bert to keep an eye on her since she's obviously not leaving that TV.
 
Jenna: It's so rude. Roger asks her to come out for his toast, and Jane declines. She's heard his toast and there's no one sitting at their table.
Jane is definitely also about the prestige.
 
It's just not the most grown up response on Jane's part. And you can see she isn't the love of his life and he's not the love of hers.
 
So Roger gives his toast,
he says something really nice and genuine about Mona,
and then it feels like he brings the whole room together when he says to Margaret and Brooks that their spirit, love and hope is giving all of them strength on what could have been an awful day.
 
And he doesn't fall apart. He rises to the occasion and adapts.
This is not the toast he planned to give that Jane heard a million times.
And it isn't a toast that Harry or Pete would give that reflect their personal pain.
It focuses on Margaret and Brooks and their love together.
Well done, Roger.
 
Steve: Yeah, and Roger's very charming and it's just perfect for the moment. And it rolls into the father daughter dance. And we see Don asking Betty to dance and she sort of gives a non answer.
 
And Don, leaning into his marriage, stands up and invites her to dance.
We can see him trying here.
 
Jenna: Yes. It seems like he's trying to do exactly what he thinks that she'll want.
She's got his full attention, which we know is rare,
but he's really leaning in with that full Don Draper attention and looking at her as they're dancing, and she's looking to the sides of him.
 
He gives his standard line, everything's going to be fine.
And she doesn't just accept it. She says, how do you know that?
And he kisses her.
At the end of the kiss, she isn't smiling.
And this kiss, it feels like the end of the fairy tale.
 
Instead of waking Sleeping Beauty,
it was the kiss of death for their relationship.
Which is not to say that Jon Hamm is a bad kisser, obviously,
but she's no longer looking at Don to find a handsome prince there.
 
Steve: There seems to be a real coldness as she says, you know, how do you know?
We know that there's tension in the marriage.
And I often think, you know, of that old saying that the opposite of love isn't hatred, it's indifference.
 
She's not even hating him now.
She's just done with him,
and she's not emotionally invested in him or what he has to say.
And she just looks at him so - almost scientifically, it sends a chill through me.
 
And I think I agree with you there.
You feel much more worried with that indifference than you would if she was arguing and fighting or - there's not a back and forth here between the two of them.
We see him leaning in, trying to salvage things,
and it just feels like he doesn't have the key to the door anymore.
 
Jenna: Yes. And we've seen this back in My Old Kentucky Home earlier this season, where she mentioned multiple times that she wanted to dance and he wasn't offering that to her.
 
Because of something Jane says, they have a fight, and they reconcile by themselves, off to the side.
And here we've seen this moment play out before, differently.
And this seems like a giant shift.
 
Steve: And previously, when she made an excuse because she knew Don didn't want to dance,
or if she showed indifference, we knew she wanted to dance, and was just hoping that Don would drag her out onto the dance floor.
 
Now it feels like it's really flipped. And her indifference to dancing was actually, no, she has no desire to dance with him whatsoever.
In fact, she probably wants to dance with Henry.
 
And I did enjoy the comedic moment when Henry's daughter busts him for looking at Betty all the time on the dance floor. And Henry denies it and sort of spins them around so he's facing away from Betty.
But it's a cute moment at the end of the evening.
 
Jenna: As Betty comes out of the restroom, there's a shot of Don and Henry, each facing opposite directions, both looking at her.
It's a clear choice.
 
Betty says nothing to Henry, and lets Don put her white fur over her shoulders before they leave.
 
Steve: Yeah. And Henry and Don are back to back from the view of the camera, which gives us sort of Betty's view coming out.
 
Such a great shot because we can see almost her two choices ahead for her in this case, obviously. She goes home with her husband.
 
Jenna: Meanwhile, Roger, fireman carries a drunk Jane to bed.
Duck wants to call his kids in a crisis.
Who does Roger want to call? He calls Joan.
 
It's shorthand between them as they both express how weird the world is.
She says Greg is working in the ER, and people are getting sick and babies are being born, as if the world is normal.
 
And Roger says the wedding was a disaster.
The gap between what was planned and what happened was pretty wide, but he made the best of it. And now, you see, this is his real take. This is his guard down.
He can tell Joan what he really thinks.
 
Steve: And I think the wedding's a disaster in more than just, oh, the planned wedding of his daughter Margaret.
It's also that realization of who Jane is.
 
In the commentary, the writer Brett Johnson mentions that Roger finally, in this moment, sees his relationship the way others have seen it. He's married a child here, and there's no denying it.
 
He fought to get her in the wedding,
then she's watching television in the kitchen, and then she's so inebriated that he has to fireman carry her.
 
But the adult he's talking to is Joan.
And I think this is part of Joan managing Roger here. She can tell he's down.
And what does she say to him? Life goes on. Things continue.
 
It's almost the same reassurance that Don gave Sally and Bobby after the shooting. You know, life goes on and the normal stuff is still happening, even though we've got these big things that are scaring us and pushing us off balance.
 
It's kind of a sad, pathetic moment for Roger because he should be wrapping up the evening with Mona. You know, that's a real partner for him, or maybe even Joan, but he doesn't have that.
And it's. It's his own foolish choices that have led him to this place.
 
Jenna: Yes, when we talked about Annabelle and Jane and The One last episode, this conversation with Joan seems a lot more real.
Because who can Roger call who understands?
It's not Jane.
 
And it does feel like it could have been Mona still,
but he kept his respect for Joan.
And maybe it wouldn't be that way if she hadn't gotten out of that relationship when she did. Maybe it would have deteriorated.
 
But it was so nice in this episode to see Roger and Mona bring their collaborative skills back.
And it did really feel like, what a waste, Roger.
Like, it could have been so much better for you either way.
 
Steve: And also what he was seeking. Because I think, you know, nobody could fault anyone from seeking true love and that incredible experience.
 
But in Roger's case,
it feels like he was pursuing a fantasy. Something that wasn't real,
something that wasn't actually attainable.
 
You can't roll back the clock and fall in love for the first time. You know, that doesn't work that way.
So to throw it all away for something he couldn't attain anyway,
it just makes it that much more pathetic, I think.
 
 
Jenna: The next day, Betty is back at home watching the TV.
And as the police walk Lee Harvey Oswald out, he is shot.
Betty screams. And when Don tries to comfort her, she asks him to leave her alone.
 
Steve: This is another really bad warning sign of where they are at this moment, because Betty is clearly upset.
The world's been rocked again for her,
and she doesn't want to hear from Don Draper.
 
She doesn't want to interact with him. He holds no comfort for her. And again, it's this cold indifference that is so cutting, versus anger or hurt or something to say I'm emotionally invested.
All this just seems to yell, I've cut my ties with you.
 
Jenna: Yes. It's not, I'm afraid, hold me.
It's I'm afraid, get away from me.
 
 
Later, Betty puts herself together and she tells Don she's going for a drive to clear her head.
He says, oh, that's a great idea. I'll get the kids. We'll go together.
And she says,
no, that's not how this is going to be.
I'm going by myself.
 
Steve: And if it is just a drive to clear her head,
it does feel like she's gotten all made up. And perhaps at that time, and for somebody of her class,
that would be the way she proceeds.
But it makes me think, okay, why are you getting all dressed up?
 
 
Jenna: It's no accident that we see Betty in this same parking lot where we found her at the end of season one, crying to Glenn in a parked car about how unhappy she was.
And now we see her meeting up with Henry in a car.
 
And both times she says, I don't care.
Before, it was that Glen's mother was coming out, and this time it's where Don thinks she is.
 
She tells Henry she wishes she could believe him when he says things will be okay,
but she can't believe anything now.
 
And at this point, Glenn said,
I wish I was older.
He can't rescue her, but Henry can.
 
He says, have you ever thought there are other ways to live?
In other words, she doesn't have to be stuck with a lying husband, living without believing that tomorrow can be better.
 
Steve: It's interesting to me how Betty doesn't waste much breath on explaining her feelings about Don to Henry. I mean, he inquires, she basically dismisses it and moves on,
which, again, is just a very strong absence of emotions related to that.
 
You know, she's boxed it up and put it behind her.
That's something Henry would pick up on.
And maybe that helps inspire his timing in this moment, because it's a pretty big thing that he suggests to her.
 
Jenna: Henry seems very sincere and direct as he tells Betty he wants to marry her.
And he actually says, I'm not in love with the tragedy of this thing.
I want it to happen.
And she says, I have three children.
 
That doesn't dissuade him. He's willing to leave his campaign if necessary.
He says, I know I can make you happy. And that's what his focus is.
And that is a huge contrast from Don,
who, let's face it, barely thinks about Betty at all outside the house.
 
When Henry kisses her, Betty kisses back.
It's maybe a little tawdry in the car there, Betty.
 
Steve: Henry doesn't expect an answer on the spot, but he again expresses his desire for some sort of alternate universe.
The one where he could take her to the movies that's playing her favorite film.
And Betty offers up right away that it's Singin’ in the Rain.
As he prepares to leave, says,
just think about it.
 
So this is a very serious proposition from a serious person who I think has been very open and direct about what he wants.
And knowing the baggage and limitations that Betty has,
You know, he's made it very clear that he's very interested in her.
 
Jenna: Betty saying her favorite movie is Singin’ in the Rain,
a 1952 film starring Gene Kelly and Debbie Reynolds about secretly swapping one woman for another,
as Betty sits in a car secretly talking about marrying a new man while she's already married to one . . .
 
Betty gives Henry a real smile before he leaves.
And we haven't seen that from her lately. I think the last time was in Rome, in Souvenir.
 
She doesn't make any commitments to Henry.
But the contrast - it's not a cold reception she's giving him either.
 
Steve: Henry has laid his cards on the table here. He's not going to let this opportunity pass without her knowing exactly how he feels.
 
 
Jenna: Back at Pete and Trudy's apartment, Pete is wearing a dark turtleneck, and Trudy has slacks with a fuzzy sweater.
They look so 70s in this moment, I'm expecting them to pick up guitars and sing folk songs here.
 
It’s such a contrast from when they were on the couch in this exact spot and Trudy was wearing a 50s style swing dress and Pete was in his suit.
You can see the transition from where the country has been to where it's headed, just in the costume change here.
 
 
Steve: They’re watching the broadcast, which continues to replay Lee Harvey Oswald's shooting by Jack Ruby.
Pete reassures her that he's not going to work on the national day of mourning, but he is going to go in on the Tuesday.
 
And Trudy is continuing to bolster him, saying that he's done everything they've asked and he doesn't owe them anything.
And she tells him that he should start gathering his clients.
 
Jenna: Yes, she's been very ambitious for him within this Sterling Cooper hierarchy. But here, with the country changed forever, Trudy has changed too.
She basically says Sterling Cooper doesn't deserve him.
 
 
In that headspace,
Betty comes home and tells Don she doesn't love him.
 
At every turn, he tries to soothe her like she's a toddler who wants a Band Aid. You're very upset. Don't stop it. You'll feel better tomorrow.
 
We get our truth call-out when he says “you're distraught,” and she agrees “that's true.”
 
Why do you think she's leaving him now, even though she seemed like she made peace with him on Halloween?
 
Steve: I didn't feel like she made peace with him on Halloween. I felt that she heard his story and got a response to what she'd discovered.
But I don't think it addressed any of the problems with how it got to that point.
 
So I think she was sympathetic, and she realized that he's had a hard life and he is the way he is because of where he came from.
 
But I never saw any inkling of her being all right with it or reaching a firm conclusion.
So to me, this scene seems to be a carryover of that, with the difference being she has contemplated it and has now reached a conclusion that she's simply not in love with them anymore.
 
It undermines everything else and really leaves us in a bit of a corner of, well, what happens to this relationship then?
 
Jenna: I think the lies and betrayal have stacked up so much that it's impossible for her to move forward with Don.
It's the infidelity.
It's calling her psychiatrist behind her back.
It's lying about his identity and family for 10 years.
It's Anna Draper with the divorce and the house and the recent contact when he didn't tell her.
 
Betty has been in the process of leaving Don since season one.
Helen Bishop was her window to that possibility, and she knew things weren't right.
And then they tried the separation, but she got pregnant, so she tried again.
 
And she might not know about Suzanne or Shelly specifically,
but she has no reason to trust him.
So her lawyer said she wouldn't be able to live independently if she left Don. And here's Henry, who's stable and successful,
talking about making her happy.
 
If Henry doesn't come along in this moment,
I think maybe Betty sucks it up and tries to make the best of it, lies and all.
 
Steve: I don't disagree with that,
but I don't think she'd emotionally recommit to him and love him.
I think she'd make a practical decision to say, I can't make a move at the current time, and I won't.
 
But I think she would insulate herself emotionally so she can't be hurt anymore.
And like you mentioned, I think she's lost all faith in him.
And really,
her conclusion seems sound. You know, what major important thing is there where he has been fully transparent, honest, truthful with her?
It's hard to come up with anything.
 
So given that pattern of conduct, and this is over an extended period of time because we know they've been married over 10 years,
I think it's reasonable for her to say that this is the way you're wired and you're never going to change.
 
And she's not willing to accept a situation where she can't trust her partner. It's tragic and it's painful. And I think,
you know, we see that as Don goes upstairs and sits down and hangs his head, I think Don Draper realizes she's absolutely correct in her reasoning here.
 
He has burned down this marriage,
which maybe he was never as committed to from his side,
but now she's burned down her side of it, and there's nothing for him to hold onto or to connect to.
 
Jenna: Don's had this secret for so long, and I think he has always been afraid that if people knew who he was, nobody could love him.
That's the safety of wearing a mask.
 
And you can argue about how shallow Betty Draper is with regard to his impoverished background, or the sex appeal of the mystery of him disappearing,
but I don't think you can avoid the fact that his mask contributes to his relationship problems, in at least equal measure.
 
The fact that he's wearing the mask and avoiding intimacy is what's destructive to his relationships.
 
Steve: I think it would also be different if he had come forward of his own volition,
but he never does.
So he can be caught, and he'll try and bully or bluff his way out of it.
 
In this case, where she has him dead to rights, he fesses up. But even within that, it's a very edited version of the story,
and he's not especially forthcoming about things.
 
As viewers, we know that he corrects a few of his misstatements and comes clean.
But for somebody who's been lied to for that long,
I think if I were Betty, I'd want a more comprehensive version that's really filling in all the blanks and offering up all the truths that have been withheld.
 
And even at this point, if you said to Betty, you know, does he have other secrets that weren't in the box? I think she'd probably wager, yeah, he probably does.
 
 
Jenna: When Don comes downstairs for work the next morning, Betty is feeding the kids, and Don sort of peeks around the corner at his family, at his life.
 
And as he leaves, she doesn't speak to him, or even look at him.
The kids look at each other and then at their parents, and they register something's wrong,
but they know better than to ask about it.
They've been trained their whole lives not to ask too many questions.
 
Steve: And Betty here, again, it's this indifference, right? She doesn't look at him. She doesn't speak to him. There's no acknowledgment of his presence as he goes out the door.
 
And that just seems so damning and so cold,
you almost want her to throw something at him as he goes out the door to show that there is some feeling, some sentiment, some connection between the two of them.
There's nothing. And it's such a death knell for the relationship.
 
 
Jenna: Monday was a day of mourning for President Kennedy, but here it is, Monday, and Don goes into the office anyway.
And who else is there?
Peggy.
 
She pulls up the storyboard, the one with the convertible and the couples for Aqua Net which is a reminder of the assassination. And Don puts it face down.
 
She says the commercial doesn't shoot until after Thanksgiving,
so they should be okay in terms of negative associations for the ad concept.
They're both so comfortable talking about work.
 
Steve: And in the commentary, they talk about that, you know, from a modern memory standpoint, the Zapruder film is so prominent in those of us who have seen it and, you know, think about the assassination.
 
But back at this time, the Zapruder film has not been made public.
There is no footage of Kennedy being shot, as much as people know he was in an open convertible in Dallas that day.
 
Jenna: Peggy says her roommate invited a bunch of people over to write condolence letters to Jackie Kennedy.
 
And she has this great line. She says, I went to my sister's, and my mom was crying and praying so hard there wasn't room for anyone else to feel anything.
 
And we can absolutely believe that about Peggy's mother, knowing her.
And we probably all know people in our lives who take up so much space that there isn't room to feel anything.
 
Across the episode, it does seem like there have been a lot of tantrums and characters taking up a lot of space with their feelings.
We had Pete to Trudy, Margaret to Mona, Jane to Roger,
and at first, Betty to Don.
 
Steve: Peggy does ask Don if he wants to join her watching the funeral in Cooper's office,
and he shakes his head sadly,
shuffles into his own office, and pours himself a drink.
 
Jenna: The closing song is The End of the World by Arthur Kent and Sylvia Dee, performed by Skeeter Davis.
 
The lyrics say,
Don't they know it's the end of the world? Cause you don't love me anymore.
 
I do have a hard time picturing Don being so broken about this for too long, though.
 
When he and Betty were separated, he told Roger he felt relieved.
Maybe that was just him trying to save face at the time.
 
He usually seems like his time with Betty and the kids is obligatory or performative and not joyful or peaceful, though.
And he's constantly searching for something else with other women.
So I think Don Draper's heart will go on beating, even if Betty Draper says goodbye.
 
Steve: That's an interesting observation, and I think you're totally on with that.
He does seem awfully dedicated to trying to resurrect it in the face of the revelations.
 
What do you think his motivation is there? Is it just to sort of keep things the way they have been in a world that, as we knew from just, you know, a prior episode,
was working pretty well for him?
 
He had the family, the trophy wife, the mistress on the side, highly successful at work. Is he just trying to maintain his status quo because it, for all its shortcomings and deficiencies, it works as well as anything for him.
 
Jenna: Well, you know, we track the truth call-outs across the episode. But another thing I'm tracking is “it's what people do.”
Being married to the trophy wife like Betty, it's what people do.
 
So that's a huge part of his role as Don Draper. And without that,
who is he?
I think it's much less about Betty and much more about without this, what does my role look like now?
 
Who am I supposed to pattern myself after, because I know what to look like as the married man, I know what the world expects to see.
I don't know what to do without that.
 
And it's interesting because we saw that with Betty when she was looking at Helen Bishop, trying to picture, well, what other pattern could there be for my life?
What other option is there, because both of them entered into this marriage doing it because it's what people do?
 
Steve: I think it's a good question for the Don Draper character. And I wonder,
does this ground him somehow or tether him to a reality or a routine?
 
And in a world where that tether is broken,
is this what leads to the airship starting to drift off a little bit and get out of control and to lose that ground?
 
 
Jenna: Our next episode will be the much admired Shut the Door. Have a Seat. We can't wait to talk about that with you.
 
Our listener shout out for today goes to Allie W.
Thank you so much for your kind, positive review of our podcast.
We really appreciate you taking the time to do that, and thank you so much to all our listeners who keep showing up and sharing our show.
It is great to hear your feedback and insights.
 
Steve: That's it for this episode of all things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, MadMenCtoZ.com to vote for your favorite Sterling Lines, and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
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Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.