Love Among the Ruins S3:E2 Mad Men Transcript

Below, find the full, human-edited transcript of our Mad Men C to Z podcast episode for Season 3, Episode 2: Love Among the Ruins.
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Mad Men C to Z Podcast Transcript: S3:E2 – Love Among the Ruins
 
Jenna: Hi, I'm Jenna.
 
Steve: And I'm Steve. Welcome to All Things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou.
 
Jenna: There's so much to love about this amazing show, and we're happy to connect to fans like us, who discover new things with each rewatch.
 
Steve: Be advised, while we aren't gratuitous with spoilers, they can pop up as we discuss character arcs through the final season.
Let's get started with Mad Men, C to Z.
 
Jenna: Welcome to Season three, episode two, Love Among the Ruins. This episode of Mad Men was written by Cathryn Humphris and Matthew Weiner, directed by Lesli Linka Glatter.
 
In the opening scene, Ken, Harry, and Sal are completely charmed by the opening sequence of Bye Bye Birdie, in which Ann Margret sings directly to camera. Peggy isn't nearly as thrilled with it.
 
Bye Bye Birdie was a stage musical before it became a 1963 movie starring Dick Van Dyke, Janet Leigh, and Ann Margret. It's about a rock and roll star visiting Ohio for a publicity stunt before he's drafted into the army.
 
Peggy's not the only one who feels shoved aside by Ann Margret, either. Dick Van Dyke was in the stage show, and he felt his role in the movie was diminished so the director could showcase Ann Margret instead.
 
In this meeting, Peggy tries to make an argument against this ad idea: she doesn't like the name Patio, she wants to at least be able to make fun of the sequence, and she points out that the ad should appeal to women who would be buying the drink, and not men who like Ann Margret.

 
Steve: Yeah, and I think one of the key things that Peggy says in this scene is, clients don't always know what's best, which is such a mirror of what we've heard from Don Draper before and really fits in with this notion of the creative mindset.
 
Maybe it's not fair to say prima donna in this case, but just the notion that creative may know better than the client what they should be seeking, even if they're mistakenly pursuing something else.
 
Jenna: She does bring some ego here, but the men are overruling her. They're basically accusing her of being jealous of Ann Margret, and she might be, but it doesn't make her wrong about the ad.
 
And I feel like this is a callback to Maidenform, when she was questioning them about being a Jackie or a Marilyn. She doesn't see those options as being true for everyone, but the men in the room so want her to be this. It makes her start to wonder, oh, am I supposed to be this? Even though I think she finds it ridiculous.
 
What did you think about this performance?
 
Steve: Yeah, I'm not a fan of it. That's not my jam.
So I guess I'm landing on Peggy's side of the fence on this one.
I think Ann Margret's very beautiful and very attractive, but the voice, the sort of little girl vocal, the exaggerated performance, none of it floats my boat.
 
But again, it's hard to look at it with, you know, 1963 eyes. Perhaps it was something quite different back at that time compared to where we've got to today.
 
Jenna: I saw this movie a long time ago. It's not of my era, but as a musical theater fan and a vocalist, I don't love it. I don't really relate to crying, screaming fans, so the premise of the song seems ridiculous.
 
And I know it's supposed to be campy and a little extreme.
I agree with you. The singing style, particularly the H articulated in the middle of the word birdie, that bothers me.
 
And I also noticed - sorry, this is a bit of a tangent, but the bridge is uncomfortably familiar. So if you're familiar with “Do you hear the People Sing,” from Les Mis - the “Will you join in our crusade” part - the rhythm is different and it's - that part’s in a minor key, but it is a lot like the “I'll miss the way you smile” - that section.
 
And then when her note goes up about “write you faithfully” and “the blood of the martyrs will water the meadows of France,” have a listen and see what you think about it, because I was shocked by how similar those were.
 
And yeah, I agree with you. Ann Margret's pretty and she's charismatic, but this performance seems ridiculous. And I don't blame Peggy for wanting the men in the room to want something more than this.
 
Steve: Yeah, but clearly all the men are fascinated by it and can't get enough of it. So it is such a contrast between their perceptions and Peggy's in this case.
 
Jenna: Back at the Draper residence, the kids are in the kitchen and Betty is hiring a decorator, presumably for the nursery.
Don comes in and offers some cursory complaints about the cost of the decorator, but he supports Betty when she says she wants to go to Tarrytown this weekend to shop for furniture.
 
And I feel like I need to start tracking the ratio of Betty's positive to negative comments to Bobby in particular, because she opens the scene saying, Bobby, back away from the stove. And she ends the scene snapping at him, what are you doing? So poor Bobby can't really catch a break.
 
Steve: Yeah. And he's just being a kid. Right. So it's not that he's really crossed any line or anything, it's just he's acting like kids act. And Betty doesn't seem to have a lot of patience for that.
 
We do see Don as the dutiful husband here, reinforcing that they're going to go to Tarrytown even though the antique stores have a weird smell.
And then he promises them a trip to Carvel to get some ice cream afterwards.
 
 
Jenna: In the next scene, Pete and Paul are meeting with some clients about replacing Penn Station with Madison Square Garden.
The New York City Pennsylvania Railroad station was completed in 1910, and for 50 years it was a grand, iconic public space with soaring ceilings and granite columns. And the above ground buildings were demolished in 1963 to make room for Madison Square Garden, which was completed in 1968.
 
Steve: Yeah. And just the latest version of Madison Square Garden. So, you know, this is a site that that's had a variety of things on it. And this change, the demolition of the grand old Penn Station is something that is lamented to this day.
 
It is a very big moment, even if at the time the characters may not perceive how this will be looked at in the long run. And we see Paul here as the voice of the opposition speaking up about this is this grand building and really rubbing the clients the wrong way.
 
And we have Pete, the account man, trying to smooth things over and portray that. Paul is playing devil's advocate here so they can strategize. But I think the clients are not dumb and they perceive that Paul is opposed to it. And you can feel the tension build throughout the scene.
 
Jenna: Yes. Paul asks, do you know where the greatest Roman ruins are? They're in Greece and Spain because the Romans tore them down.
 
And the clients retort, this is the greatest city in the world. If you don't like it, leave. I really hate these types of arguments, because reasonable people can disagree about what's best or what's greatest, and they can both believe it's the greatest city in the world and disagree about what happens to the building.
 
And I thought it was really interesting that when the client leaves,
Pete calls him out for his hypocrisy. Paul isn't complaining about the atom plant on the East River, but the Penn Station is a bridge too far.
Paul says, it's Penn Station. This city has no memory. Out with the old, in with the new . . . who says that's a good idea?
 
And Don Draper is all about having no memory and being in with the new.
And Pete's next line to Paul is, I'm going to have to talk to Don about this.
 
And it's so great because of course it works in terms of the business.
Paul didn't play nice with the clients, and Don needs to know about that. But it also works because Don's philosophy is completely, completely about replacing the old with the new as often as possible.
 
Steve: I'm going to speak out in defense of the clients here, because they haven't come to Sterling Cooper to have a debate about the merits of tearing down Penn Station and redeveloping the site.
 
They're there to solve a problem, which is they're in a PR jam because people are starting to get their backs up against this plan.
So to go there looking for answers and then find yourself stuck in the same debate . . . I think I'd react similarly hostilely to Paul in that scene if I were on the other side of the table.
 
 
Jenna: Next we get a really short scene of Betty and Joan walking through the office together.
Joan is complimenting Betty on how good she looks.
 
I've seen in interviews how January Jones had scenes with Don and the kids, of course, but she rarely had any scenes with actors in the office. So it is kind of funny to be a star on a seven-season show and almost never get to work with most of the other stars.
 
So it's a very, very short scene, but at least we get Betty in the office with Joan here. I don't know if there's another scene between them.
 
 
Steve: The next scene has Roger walking into Lane's office, joined by Bert and Don, so that Lane can inform them that Campbell’s Soup has dropped them. This means that they've lost Campbell's Soup globally.
 
Lane's none too happy about having lost this client, but the Americans are somewhat befuddled as to why this requires a meeting of the principals just to be made aware that they've lost a client.
 
Jenna: Yeah, Bert peaces out. “I'll wear out the carpet if I'm called down every time we lose a client. We're an ad agency.” This is going to happen.
 
And when Don and Roger stay, Lane says, how did this slip through the cracks?
And Roger says, well, I could call Burt Peterson back and fire him again.
And Don says he attends meetings, he doesn't call them.
And Lane is impatient with these excuses. He says, well, if this is where we wanted to end up, we all did everything perfectly.
 
That's an interesting call to account here, pardon the pun, because Duck was also hard charging and also had expectations. And Roger and Don, as we know, have their own tendencies to go off and do whatever they feel like. So of course things are going to slip through the cracks, and they don't appreciate being called out for it.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I think as establishing Lane as a presence in the office, this is an important scene as well, because previously I got the vibe of him as more of a bean counter and adding up the nickels and dimes in this scene, he's taking a broader approach as to the business itself, more broadly, how do they pursue it, and then trying to hold the principles to account for, you know, an obvious failure that they're trying to get better and do more, everyone should take seriously.
 
And yet it feels like Lane is the only one who views this as a missed opportunity or a mistake that someone may have made.
 
Jenna: I would like to shout out Roger's line here, since Lane has this suit of armor in the corner of his office, and Roger says,
did you ever get three sheets to the wind and try that thing on?
 
And of course, that expression, three sheets to the wind means drunk. And I looked it up, and it comes from sailors, meaning loose sails making the ship lurch. And we know Roger was a Navy man, so I thought that was a really good detail.
 
Steve: I like Roger's two quips in the scene. That one, and then about, you know, fire Burt Peterson again. The comic relief from Roger Sterling is always excellent.
 
Jenna: Outside the office, Joan is holding a ring on a string over Betty's pregnant stomach. And Allison says, it's definitely side to side. So this is a can we guess the baby's gender?
 
And Betty has insisted that the baby is a girl. But according to the ring gender test, the side to side motion, instead of circular motion, predicts a boy. It's not exactly a scientific process.
 
Steve: I've never heard of that, that test. So maybe it died out due to lack of success.
 
Jenna: There's also a really good detail as Roger comes out of the meeting and he sees Betty and he says, oh, look, Princess Grace swallowed a basketball. And he kisses her cheek.
 
And Betty's pretty cool to him. She says, oh, hello, Roger.
He says, it's not hard to adjust to happiness.
And in this whole thing with Jane, every single time he talks to somebody about her, he tries to say something about how his life is so great and everybody consistently refuses to grant it to him.
 
I mean, not Bert, not Bert's sister, not Don, not Betty, not Joan, not anybody. Of course, we wouldn't expect it from Joan, but it's so funny. And then Joan and Roger are just left for this moment.
 
She avoids looking at him. And finally she does, and there's this awkward smile, and she walks away. And he says, good night, Mrs. Harris. Because, of course, she's married and they've moved on from each other.
 
There's always this thing between them, I think.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I think the Roger move to Jane, it's a threat to many of the married women. Right. This is not how that model's supposed to play out.
 
Roger's, I don't know, childlike insistence that everyone should just be okay with it or embrace it the way he has . . . it's a threat to them. It's a nightmare scenario for most people. So it makes total sense to me that everyone else is very cool to it.
 
Jenna: Yeah, I think that's a great point.
 
In our next scene, we see Lane and his wife with Don and Betty at dinner.
 
Rebecca Pryce is played by Embeth Davitz, who has been in so many different projects, including Schindler's List, the Amazing Spider Man,
and she's also Natasha, who gets engaged to Colin Firth's character in Bridget Jones’s Diary.
 
Rebecca isn't shy about her distaste for America.
I see Betty trying here, with her smiles and her compliment about the wine. She asks Rebecca if she misses London, and her answer is, God, yes. But what we lost in London, we gained in insects. And there's not really anywhere polite conversation can go with that.
 
Steve: Yeah, it's so. It's so awkward. You know, Lane isn't good at the socializing. Betty's doing her best, and Rebecca's just making it difficult on everyone because she's clearly intent on slagging on New York and the United States.
 
It strikes me as being a very real scene of these kind of situations where no one really wants to be there by choice. But these are the people you socialize with, that you work with, and that's part of the deal. And then you end up in these very blah dinners together.
 
Jenna: And afterward, we see Don and Betty in the car, this real conversation that people have after a dinner they've gone to when they didn't want to go.
 
And Betty tells Don that she called William, her brother, and found out that Gloria left her father. She wants William and his family to drive her father to visit them for the weekend.
 
And you can see Don is irritated about this. But, I mean, Betty just sat through this work dinner for him, so it seems fair.
 
And it's true - she never has to put up with any of his family stuff because he doesn't have any, but his work obligations, even the real ones, they are certainly demanding enough in terms of Betty's time and effort. So I understand that he's irritated, but I feel like, in a reciprocal way, she certainly puts in her time for his stuff, so it's fair to ask him this.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I think the common theme there between the two of them is their lack of power and agency. Betty will attend the dinner with Rebecca, who doesn't want to be here because that's, you know, an obligation to her husband and in his employment.
 
And now she's returning the favor to Don. She's got families - a family situation with her father, and she's asking him, but really, she's not asking this. This is a done deal. You know, Gene is going to come to visit. And Don calls out, why did you even bother asking me?
 
And it's. It's true they're together and they're supportive of each other, but they're both kind of powerless in the respective spheres where they're having to contribute.
 
Jenna: But it's such a shame that they can't reframe that, because instead of thinking this is an opportunity to support my wife in a difficult time with her family, or the way Trudy is about Pete: this is an opportunity to support my husband in his career. They're very listless about it and resentful about it, so it's too bad they really don't feel like they're on the same team.
 
And really, to emphasize that, at the end of the scene, Betty puts her hand on her belly and says, she's really kicking. That reinforces the idea that she thinks the baby's a girl and Don doesn't reach over and put his hand to feel it.
 
I don't know that we're supposed to read all that much into it, but it doesn't feel like they're really, truly supporting each other.
 
Steve: They're definitely not at their best. But I think we can see the toll of these obligations on them. You know, the fatigue, the frustration.
It's a grind. It's not all smiles and laughs.
 
Jenna: Roger welcomes his daughter, Margaret, and his ex, Mona, into his office. Brooks, Margaret's fiance, isn't there yet, and it comes up that Margaret doesn't want Jane to go to her wedding, and also that Roger thinks Margaret is hurting Jane's feelings by not returning her calls.
 
There are so many great, quick zinger lines in this scene. The pacing is just fantastic. Roger and Margaret are each determined to be the victim and the winner.
 
Steve: Yeah. And in terms of that temporal disposition, it feels like Roger is all in on the new relationship and wants the world to buy into it. Like, let's all move forward. No sense looking backward here, anybody.
 
And especially with Mona and Margaret, these are two people who are both clinging to the past and what they had. And clearly Margaret is not going to forgive her father for abandoning her mother. They're not going to give Roger what he wants here.
 
So we've just got this impasse between the two of them. And for all his charm and his quips, Roger can't get past this barrier.
 
Jenna: He just really, for an account guy, he makes some pretty major missteps here. Mona comes in with a compromise, and as you say, Roger won't have any part of it.
 
And then he insults Mona by saying, well, if you're worried about odd numbers, I'll get you a date. And she's very calm. She says, I already have one. And he immediately wants to know who.
So it's okay for him to go off with Jane, but you can tell, I mean, he doesn't even hide his interest in it. He's very, very quickly, very blatantly asks, who is it that you have as a date to this wedding?
 
Steve: That old saddlebag. Right. So he can't even hear who it is without further commenting with the put down.
 
Jenna: And Margaret says of Jane, I didn't want to go to her wedding, but I did. The least she could do is not come to mine.
 
And Roger will not budge.
 
Brooks comes in, and of all the famous Mad Men memes out there, we should really note that this scene happens a lot earlier because Brooks says, how are you, sir? And Roger goes, not great, Brooks, not great.
 
And we pan over to see their sample wedding invitations,
and they are for November 23, 1963.
 
Steve: And we all remember what happened on November 22, or have learned what happens on November 22.
 
 
Back in Don's office, we have Lane coming in.
He's quite effusive about the dinner with Rebecca. And he says, you know, Betty really raised her spirits, which is kind of a laughable,
polite thing to say, I suppose, because I don't think anybody was raising Rebecca's spirits that evening.
 
He talks about Don needing to take the Madison Square Garden guy to lunch, given how badly things went with Paul and Pete in the earlier meeting. It's Edgar Raffit, who's the VP of Madison Square Garden.
 
Jenna: So when Lane comes in to ask Don to go to this lunch, and he says Roger's going too. And Don goes, “Today?”
And you just know he would love to go see a movie or meet a woman or do anything to distract himself from his life this afternoon.
 
But Lane is pressing him in a way that Roger never does to any satisfactory degree. He says, do you have plans?
And he's just trapped. There's nothing he can say.
 
So now Don has to go to this meeting, just like he's got to host his in laws this weekend. So you can feel his sense of agency slipping away.
 
Steve: Yeah, And I think it's another indicator of this creeping sense of powerlessness of Don. You know, he's on a track. He has to march to the drumbeat of the business. That's just not the way it's been to this point. So it marks a real change.
 
And again, we have Lane here as the adult trying to advance the business and make sure that they don't lose this opportunity with the Madison Square Garden team.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Draper household, we see William, Judy, their kids, and Gene coming into the house. We've heard that their kids are badly behaved. And they run into the house and they're kind of loud.
 
And Gene says he picked up a sandwich for Betty, and one for Gloria. He's having trouble remembering things.
And William is not very nice to him about this confusion. He says, great, we'll mail the sandwich to her in Boca Raton.
 
And we also see Judy, William's wife, reminding Gene to take his Coumadin medication. And Betty eyes them. She is so jealous of Judy. She's not grateful to her for her support and care of her father.
It even - this jealousy even overrides her concern for her father's health.
And it's such a terrible look for Betty that her need to be the star is the most important thing, even now.
 
Steve: Yeah, it's kind of a can't-win for Judy because, you know, William's got his limitations as a son in terms of caretaker for the father. So Judy's really stepping in and making up for William's shortcomings and then having it held against her by Betty because Betty is his daughter, et cetera, et cetera. But Betty's not there.
 
She just seems totally respectful and not trying to tread on the family toes, but also trying to step up in places where maybe the family isn't stepping up and she just can't win for trying.
 
Jenna: I agree. I think Judy is a completely unsung hero in this series.
We don't give her enough credit.
 
 
Back at the office, Peggy passes Joan talking to clients, and Peggy overhears a joke Joan makes, and it isn't the cleverest joke, but Joan is so confident and at ease with these men, and they respond so favorably that Peggy takes notice.
 
And I think even here with this writing in Mad Men, this detail with Joan telling the men, well, my husband won't really let me take the train.
She's letting them know that she's married. And she would definitely need to signal this all the time to mention - she still would probably get a lot of unwanted attention.
 
We also see that the way Joan dresses has changed a little bit since she's been married. So even though we only see her for less than a minute in this scene, it gives us so much detail about her character and how she's - things are shifting for her.
 
Steve: Yeah. And in the commentary Matt Weiner talks about how Peggy was desexualized for much of the prior seasons, you know, with the pregnancy and all that other drama going on.
 
So it feels now that Peggy's come out the other side of it, and we realize that she is a young woman in the city. And as much as she's focused on her work, it's clear she also thinks about other things and is interested in companionship.
 
I get the sense that she's looking around at these data points, like the Ann Margaret video, or the way Joan is flirting so successfully with these men in the office, and she's thinking about that in the context of herself and her own choices.
 
Jenna: Meanwhile, Roger joins Don for the lunch with the Madison Square Garden people. And Roger is really looking to commiserate with Don.
 
But just like Joan shut Peggy down from sharing about John Hooker and Lola in the last episode, Don is in no mood to listen to Roger's woes. He just refuses to be a friend to him in this scene.
 
I made my bed. I should lie in it, right? Roger says to Don about his family problems.
And it's too bad, because just like I wanted Joan and Peggy to get together and commiserate, I kind of want Don and Roger to be friends and be supportive to each other, and they just aren't.
 
Steve: If you didn't know better, you'd think they were in the midst of a tiff or some sort of fight. But I don't think that's it. I think it's just they're wrapped up with their own problems.
 
And like you say, neither has any bandwidth for the other. I mean, Don's response to, you know, lying in the bed you made, Don goes, your words, not mine. I mean, there's nothing comforting in that. And he's not saying, oh, no, no, no, it's not like that. He just lets Roger stew in it.
 
And Roger is a bit of a self pitying crybaby here at the start of this scene. iI's clear it's less about the details of the wedding or anything else than he's locked in a battle now with Mona and his daughter, and he wants to win that battle.
 
Jenna: I thought it was interesting how Roger was going on to Don, even though Don didn't want to hear it. We saw that earlier when Roger was with Joan. Joan didn't complain about any of her issues to Roger.
She was fun and carefree because she knew that's all he could really take.
 
But Roger would complain endlessly about all the minutiae of his life. And he does it to Don anyway. Even though Don is signaling very clearly, he doesn't care: Like it's not hard enough losing my little girl to that kid and her mother pouring poison in her ear.
 
He says, “All of a sudden, I don't care about that wedding. All I want to do is win.”
But how do you win?
Jane comes to the wedding and Margaret is unhappy at her own wedding? And you have a relationship with a much younger woman that's not really what you wanted?
 
I guess we haven't actually seen Roger and Jane together since he proposed, but I think since he spends so much time looking for positive affirmations about his relationship with her, it feels like he might be second guessing the decision a little bit.
 
Steve: I don't get that vibe at all. But I do agree with the earlier point. What is there to win? Or is it possible to win? The answer could be no. And maybe the mature assessment is there is no way to win.
So minimize your losses, your effort, your angst, rather than tilting at the windmill with no chance of success.
 
There's just inherent limitations in what he's done and he needs to face that music and salvage what he can. And this idea that there's anything more than that available to him again just feels like wishful thinking to me. It's like, come on, Roger, get your feet on the ground.
 
 
Jenna: So now the Madison Square Garden people arrive and Don and Roger are here to make the hard sell. (Sorry, it's just one guy.)
Roger charms and orders drinks and salads, and Don cuts to the heart of it:
You want to demolish Penn Station, and New York hates it.
Not all of New York. A vocal minority, the guy argues.
Don's point is it doesn't matter. The critics can't stop it.
 
So the Madison Square Garden people should stop worrying about those opinions and change the conversation.
Move forward, Don Draper might say,
 
Steve: Yeah, he says concern over public opinion reflects a guilty conscience.
But if you're really focused on renewal and building that new city on the hill, you're not laboring against that guilty conscience. You're just charging forward with something that's exciting and new. It's this renewal.
 
And I think Edgar Raffit really finds that appealing, because I think, unlike Roger, who we just said doesn't realize he's holding a losing hand and there's no way to win with it,
Raffit realizes he needs to toss in that the hand he has been playing and play a new hand.
 
So I get the sense that this is the Don Draper magic working really effectively here.
 
And when Raffit expresses concern about having Paul on the account,
Don reassures him that he'll handle it personally. And that really seems to resonate with Raffit to say, hey, this is the guy who's got the clear vision. He's going to take us to the promised land, and we can get through this opposition.
 
Jenna: That's also the scene with our first truth call-out.
This is a really important Don Draper moment, too. He says, if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation.
 
A new city on a hill. And the client says, just like that? And Roger supports here. He says, it's true, isn't it?
So Roger isn't doing the hard sell at all. He's just playing backup.
 
And I thought the city on the hill biblical reference, Sermon on the Mount was a callback to season one, because Don has this moment where he says, either Jesus lives in your heart or he doesn't. And he has that same tiger temperament as he says it.
 
So it feels like Don went from being pretty apathetic about this particular account to being really invested in claiming it and winning it.
 
Steve: Yeah. I wonder if, in a world where Don Draper's feeling a lack of power, this is an opportunity to assert some power, the power of this vision and to bring a client along with them.
 
It's also interesting to me that he brings up California. Everything's new and clean. People are filled with hope, whereas New York City is in decay. So it's this contrast again, with the bright future, the renewal, the change, versus the clinging to the past as it gradually falls through your fingers here.
 
So everything just lines up so nicely with his own life, with this particular client situation, with Roger's life. We just see this theme coming up again and again here, juxtaposition of decay with renewal. And where's the dividing line? And when does it tip from one side to the other?
 
 
Jenna: Back at the Draper household, all five kids are watching TV and Grandpa Gene comes in and changes the channel to watch the game. And that is 100% what would happen in the old days with one television.
Sorry, kids, you do not get to pick what's on if any adult in the house has something to watch.
 
Steve: And can I just say, as an old guy who lived that, that existence, as well as being the human remote control for my family's television set, it was my father's TV and you never had any uncertainty about that.
 
So if grandpa came over and wanted to watch the ball game, that's what went on the screen. So I just love that scene, because it really takes me back to another world, compared to today where I don't know, sometimes I find myself watching my computer, my phone and the TV.
So I've got three screens on the go just for myself.
 
Jenna: In the meantime, Betty, William, and Judy are talking in the living room. And we have another truth call-out as Judy tries to put a positive spin on Gene's health. But William is more direct and honest.
 
She says, he's down in the dumps, but he seems clear-headed. And William says, that's not true, Judy, and you know it. He's angry and he's in and out.
 
William's plan is a care home midway between William's and Betty's houses. He wants to sell their father's house to pay for it.
And Betty is very resistant. She looks at Judy and asks, do you think he belongs in a home?
And Judy says, Betty, I know I don't get a vote.
Again, Judy is not trying to insert herself here. She's been nothing but helpful. And Betty still goes over the edge.
 
Steve: And I have a problem with Betty here, because it's all fine to say I don't want my father to go in a home.
Fine. What's your alternative? Betty's not volunteer volunteering to take him in.
And we could say, well, Betty, you know, can't do that without Don's consent or whatever.
 
But it's problematic to me that Betty seems to be rejecting William's plans. But William is the one on the front lines facing this day to day.
Right now he's come up with a plan that she doesn't like, but it feels like she's knocking that down.
 
But without providing a realistic alternative, other than arguably to stick her head in the sand and say, well, maybe he's not so bad and he could just stay where he is. And William's whole plan is predicated upon the idea that that's not possible, that's not going to work, it's no longer feasible.
 
Jenna: I agree. I think it's frustrating to see her character being so rigid and not having a plan and not facing forward.
 
Steve: And again, Judy says all the right things is perfectly supportive and all the rest here. So as far as, as in laws go, you know, I think Judy's doing a great job. And Betty and William are just locked in this sibling rivalry.
 
Jenna: When Betty accuses William of wanting to take the house and saying William is uncaring to want to put his father in a home, she says “Those homes are for people who don't have families, William.”
 
And remember that Gene accused Don of having no people,
no family. So I thought it was interesting that in a way, Gene's family took Don in as a person who had no family.
 
And I wonder if maybe that's part of what prompts Don to reciprocate.
It's just kind of an interesting tie-in.
 
Steve: I think you're stretching it. There is no love or connection between the two of them whatsoever.
I don't think there's any love lost between Gene and Don on any level.
 
 
Jenna: When Don returns home, his house is not the pristine refuge he's used to. The TV is on and spouting static. Gene is in the guest bedroom, and Betty is basically hiding in her bedroom.
 
Betty tells Don that William wants to put Gene in an old folks’ home. And she says, for all I know, Judy's pushing him, even though Judy has done nothing to warrant that accusation.
 
Maybe it's always easier to blame an in-law than your brother, but there's absolutely no evidence that Judy is arguing for any particular angle here.
 
Steve: I love when Don walks in to see Gene in his room and Gene thanks him for the ritzy accommodations. You know, here's Gene taking a shot at Don instead of being grateful or showing any sort of appreciation.
 
And I love the way Don just serves it back at him with, you know, you were in the army, Gene. Don't pretend you haven't been in worse accommodations.
 
Jenna: There's another funny moment when Don is talking with Betty in their bedroom, and he opens the door to yell “Cut it out!” to the kids down the hall.
 
Steve: Yeah, I always like Don's fathering of the children from a discipline standpoint because he's clearly uncomfortable with it, and he suffered abuse as a child from his parents and step parents.
 
He just seems to do sort of the bare minimum or, you know what, what am I supposed to do? Okay, I'll yell down the hallway at them. And again, having grown up with that generation of parents, I can recognize that you knew as a kid, you could get several yells from a distance before they actually came down to see whatever you were up to.
And then things would get a little more serious.
 
Jenna: So in Betty and Don's conversation here, Don seems to agree with William, but obviously he knows he doesn't want to tip Betty over the edge.
 
As Betty lies on the bed, drinking wine and smoking,
she says about her brother, how can he talk to me that way in the condition I'm in?
 
Steve: And I think, you know, from Don's perspective, I get the vibe he just wants this to go away. It's a source of irritation and frustration that they don't need in their life right now. And Don is sort of imploring her, what does she want him to do?
 
 
Jenna: Immediately after Don and Betty in their room, we see Judy and William, who are sleeping in bunk beds. That's their guest accommodation. And I absolutely love this scene. I love the detail,
the shot of them - Judy's on the bottom bunk and William's on the top bunk, and him even climbing up, and the little boy sheets - it's fantastic.
 
And they have this short, important conversation. In the other room,
Betty is blaming William and Judy, but they're not reciprocating here.
William says Betty never remembers that she and her father fought constantly.
 
And Judy simply says, family's important to her.
This is not a person who's pushing William to sell the house.
 
Steve: Judy even offers to move in to care for him. And being a full time caregiver is a tough gig, as anybody who's come near it knows.
Judy is just stellar. And the two siblings don't even seem to realize how special Judy is in the midst of their scrapping.
 
William referencing Don has no people again here. I don't know what he wants Don to do about it at this point. It's almost like it's Don's fault he has no people, that somehow he screwed up or something.
 
Which is kind of an interesting take because if you think about, well, why does Don have no people? I don't think any of us would say it's because Dick Whitman screwed up or did something to deserve that outcome.
 
Jenna: But it's this sense of there's something wrong with him, there's something not right.
 
Steve: Yeah, yeah, it's something to hold against him, fairly or unfairly. But you can see Gene does it. William does it. Betty brings it up as well. It's recurring.
 
Jenna: And I want to make this point, when Judy suggests that they do move in to care for Gene, William doesn't want to. He already works for him and he says he doesn't want to have somebody tell him he has the wrong tie on.
 
And I feel like we can empathize with William also wanting to have some agency. And he is right to see how difficult it's likely to be, even if Betty looks at that and says it's cold hearted. William isn't a straight-up villain here. He has real, understandable concerns as well.
 
Steve: Oh yeah, I totally, personally, I don't see William as the villain, and I think he's being rather pragmatic here because many people seem to jump into the potential of full time care and then down the road realize just how demanding and brutal it is.
 
And it feels to me like William's being very realistic here. And I think he's right to know that his answer personally is no. It's not something he wants to sign up to.
 
 
Jenna: Our next scene takes us to Peggy. She's hanging laundry to dry in her apartment, by herself.
 
And she tries on the personality of Ann Margret. She sings Bye Bye Birdie in the mirror. It's honest and it's vulnerable. It's the way you might really sing and move if you were trying to imitate a star and you were by yourself.
 
But it doesn't seem to bring her any triumph or any new understanding. Afterward, she stares in the mirror and she resumes brushing her hair.
She gets on with her real life. Ann Margret just isn't going to work on her.
 
Steve: Yeah. And I think in some ways is this Peggy confirming that she could portray that sort of shallow male fantasy, but that's not her jam. She's not going to go there.
 
But in terms of, you know, physically performing it, I think, you know, Elisabeth Moss looks very pretty in the scene, and I think she does a great job. And you know, she can sing, you can tell.
 
Clearly this, this is not really an option for Peggy. Even if there's a bunch of forces in the world around her saying, hey, Peggy, you know, offer more of this, that that'll appeal to the men folk. She realizes how ridiculous and undesirable this outcome is for her. It's just, it's not a pantomime she can go through.
 
Jenna: But it's so interesting that we get to see this glimpse of this conflict in her, because of course she rejects it. But there's so much push to make her become that, or try to act more like that more of the time.
The strength it takes to reject that, I think is. Is really interesting,
especially for a young character, a person who's still trying to find her identity, that she tries this on, and we get to see this very private moment.
 
I don't see this in many shows, this, this kind of real vulnerability, where people doubt themselves, and they try these other things, and take in pieces of what they've seen that day. It's. It's fascinating.
 
Steve: Yeah, I like it for exactly the same reason. And I think for the Peggy character, I think she gets a lot of solace in her professional achievements. You know, she's had great success, she's faced huge adversity to get where she is, and she continues to face that adversity.
 
But I think it's a place where she's in control and knows what she wants to be, and how she's going to behave and all the rest of it.
And we've seen various incidents where she's the one who's kept a professional demeanor in the face of others who don't yet.
 
I also like this expose of her character here, in that she's realizing it's not enough, you know, she's not going to get everything she wants out of the professional realm.
 
And I feel like we see her now sniffing around the edges of the personal and the relationship side of, you know, how does she make progress on that axis? Yeah, it's - she doesn't know what the answer is, but she knows that's a path she needs to make progress, moving down.
 
 
Jenna: Back at Sterling Cooper, they're meeting and planning for the Madison Square Garden campaign when Lane comes in and asks to speak with Don privately. London will not support the Madison Square Garden project, and now Don fights to keep it.
 
It's a one of a kind opportunity. 30 years of potential business.
But there's no arguing his way out of this.
Exactly the way he said to the client: You can respond to change with a tantrum that says, I want it the way it was, or with a dance that says, look, something new.
 
Don chooses tantrum.
 
Steve: Yeah. And we can feel his frustration here, because he's worked his magic. I think his business assessment is dead on. You know, there's pull through business this is going to bring and for the rug to just be pulled out from under him -
 
And again, we're in the early days of seeing the Lane Pryce character, and we see Lane as the one who's the messenger here. He's the executioner who brings the bad news.
 
The telling, biting part of this, I think, comes at the end of their conversation where Don says, you know, why did you buy us if you're going to sort of do this sort of thing?
And Lane's answer is, I don't know.
 
Jenna: Yes, I agree. Don is so irritated that he tried and he lost, and it's not his fault. It feels like a waste of time. And it's into this environment that Peggy comes in, wanting to show him the storyboards for Patio.
 
Steve: It's lousy timing for Peggy.
 
Jenna: And I thought it was so interesting that he has a negative reaction to the name, just as she did, independently.
 
And she tells him it's a remake of the opening sequence of Bye Bye Birdie, and is surprised when he says he hasn't seen it. So they watch it together in the screening room.
 
He has the same empty smile the other guys did when they watched it.
But Peggy's hoping he's better than they are, that he will agree with her that this is silly and that they can build a better ad idea.
 
And Don says, it's pure. It makes your heart hurt. What a huge disappointment to Peggy that is.
 
Steve: And I think it's interesting that in this conversation,
Peggy's more truly representing creative at its best, at its most innovative, and trying to come up with what the client really needs versus maybe what the client thinks they want.
 
And Don is in some ways like the account man at this point.
And he says to her, you know, you're not an artist. You solve problems.
It's funny because you could almost imagine a world where Duck and Don are having this same argument, except they're on opposite sides.
 
It's gotta be a hard meeting for Peggy, because her mentor,
the person who really is a kindred spirit from a creative standpoint,
is now the one throwing the ice cold water on her ideas.
 
Jenna: She's pushing on him, saying, nobody seems to care that it speaks to men, not the people who drink diet drinks.
 
And Don says, this is, “Look how happy I am that I drink Patio. I'm young and excited and desperate for a man.”
And Peggy has this great line here. She goes, I don't mind fantasies, but shouldn't it be a female one?
 
And Don keeps with tradition. He says, you understand how this works. Men want her, women want to be her.
 
And in a truth, call out. She starts, even if that's true -
And Don says, it is. And he interrupts with this extra rudeness, saying,
I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.
 
And it does a little. Peggy isn't sure who she is. She isn't some glamour puss. She's not a socialite. She wants to be desired without having to be fake. And it's so uncomfortable to think that men, even men she admires, want something that she finds ridiculous and something that she isn't.
 
Steve: Okay, but even if it's true, there is no reason for Don to take anything personal there and to bring it to that place. So to me, Don's crossed the line. Like, she wasn't being personal here.
 
She was making an argument from a creative perspective. And it's a cop out to me that he spins it around and says, oh, well, that makes you uncomfortable. It's a low blow. It should be beneath Don.
 
I think we know his emotional state at this point, so it's. It's not a shocker he goes there, but it's disappointing.
 
Jenna: Exactly. I mean, she doesn't say, I'm sorry you're a liar and a cheat, Don, and no matter how much you have, happiness eludes you. Peggy doesn't say that.
 
[Laughter]
 
Steve: Yeah, it's, it's. It's a rough scene for Peggy, to start using her personal life against her or an attempt to use it against her. It's a depressing scene in kind of a down episode overall, from my perspective.
 
Jenna: And earlier - we didn't talk about this, but with Patio being a diet drink, Ken had said to her something like, it's sexy, don't be a prude.
 
And Harry said something like, you're not fat anymore. You don't need the diet drink.
 
And she takes it and takes it. And here it's Don, it's Don saying it. She's not going to let them wound her, but with him, it does. It does hurt.
And of course it does.
 
 
Once again, you put Roger and Peggy in a room together, and I love it. They're in the elevator and Roger is so self absorbed.
He goes, you're the only one around here who doesn't have that stupid look on her face.
 
Steve: Yeah, he. He's not even listening to her.
What would your father have to do for you to not want him at your wedding? And she says, my father's passed away. And he goes, yeah, exactly right.
 
He's not hearing her. He's just wrapped up in his own world. And meanwhile, Peggy's walking around with the burden of, you know, what we were just talking about. So the two solitudes there, despite the fact that they're side by side in the elevator and apparently talking to each other.
 
Jenna: Roger uses her to convince himself that he's right. Peggy only says 11 words. And Roger's like, okay, thank you very much. This is what I needed. I got my validation, thank you.
 
 
Steve: Out on the street, Peggy's commuting home, and she goes by a busy bar and looks through the window and decides to go inside.
We see the decay of the city around her. I think we get the perception of the loneliness of her life. I don't know what she's going to find in this bar, but I'm doubting that's going to be the answer.
 
Jenna: When she looks through the window and she sees all these happy people, I think people can be really quick to imagine that other people's lives are easier or better than theirs.
 
And Peggy feels alone, especially since she's taken this hit at work.
And she usually gets her affirmation and fulfillment there.
So she goes into this bar by herself. She puts on a smile.
She tries on a personality. She uses Joan's subway joke, and she gets a laugh.
 
Steve: I feel sorry for Peggy's character here. I just. There's a hollow spot inside, and she's young, and she's trying to figure it out, and she's experimenting or looking for a possible avenue to address it.
 
And I can feel for her. I can feel for her personal loneliness, I think, is maybe what it comes down to. You know, we've seen the family side where she's taken a different path, and that's created some distance between her and her family.
 
She's got knocked down hard at work by the very man who recognized her brilliance and promoted her.
 
 
Jenna: When Don gets home from work, Gene is playing solitaire at the kitchen table, William is plunging the sink, and Betty is heading downstairs, upset.
 
William has told her that either they will put Gene in a home or they will move in and Judy will be his nurse. Judy, she says.
 
And she's very tearful, but she gets to a point where she says, he's probably right.
William says? Don clarifies, and then he barks at William to speak with him.
 
Steve: Yep, Don's large and in charge. He may not be able to control things in the office, but he's about to dictate the solution here to this problem. And it's kind of funny what his solution is, right?
It's for them to take Gene in.
 
So that gets -Judy won't be the caretaker. He won't let William move into Gene's house. Gene will keep his car, so he's got some mobility.
But in seizing control here, I think Don has tripped over the caregiving angle, which is Don's not going to be happy to have Gene in his house.
And frankly, I'm not sure Gene's going to be all that happy to be in Don's house.
 
Jenna: Yes. Betty is so touched that Don has arranged this, and she sees it as the most loving gesture. And of course, as an audience, we're thinking, this is a disaster. Gene and Don dislike each other, and Betty and Don are still rocky together. Plus, they have a new baby coming, which is always an adjustment.
 
Steve: I'll have the same situation now with no sleep and see how that goes. Right. Like it's. It's a recipe for disaster.
 
Jenna: So it does feel like, why would Don do this if he wasn't being a knight in shining armor for Betty?
 
But just like Roger said about Mona, all I want to do is win.
Don isn't thinking about tomorrow. He just needs to one-up William in this moment. Their whole scene together is a power struggle from start to finish.
 
And as you say, Don needs to exert control since he's had so little at work. And just like Peggy, he needs to make up for what he's not getting there because usually that's where it feeds him. So they're so interesting that they're completely different, but also they share so many similarities.
 
Steve: Yeah. And to be fair to the character, I think we've laid out the two extremes of the spectrum. Right. One is where he's just seeking and wants to assert control. The other is white knight for his spouse, who's clearly upset and struggling with the deterioration of her father.
 
Where does the truth lie between those two extremes? I think there's elements of both ends of the spectrum, but I think both ends of the spectrum are definitely present.
 
And I also think as we zoom back and look at sort of what wheels he's just put in motion, we can just see how fraught this whole solution is. And I love the line - you know, cause William somewhat passively lets Don Draper take the wheel here, and then finally at the end gets to throw his dig in. And it finally comes and he's like, fine, you want him, you got him.
 
And that, to me, really sums it up, because William definitely didn't want him. So as much as he's maybe not happy to have the solution dictated by Don Draper, he's not unhappy to be off the schneid now from a standpoint of caring for obnoxious Gene.
 
 
Jenna: So William, Don, Judy, and Betty all meet with Gene in the kitchen and tell him about the new arrangement.
Everyone is kind, and they pose it as a temporary vacation.
And he's very resistant.
 
And again, Judy does the helpful thing.
She rubs Gene's shoulder and she says, you'll get to be with the kids. Betty's a better cook. You always say that.
So now we know she's had to listen to that over and over, and she's still trying to turn it into a positive for Gene, at this hard moment for him.
 
William seems to have picked a really great life partner.
The jury's still out on how well Betty did.
 
Steve: Yeah, Judy seems to be aces. And then again, Grumpy Gene. There's not a hint of gratitude or appreciation here at all. He's obnoxious.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the bar, we see Peggy has got herself a date.
And he seems like a nice enough guy, but not terribly clever or interesting.
 
As they talk, she's still proud to tell him she works at an ad agency in Manhattan. But she has come so far since the date with the guy that her mom set her up with in season one, the potato chip guy.
There she was bragging about Manhattan, and she made a point of saying she's a copywriter.
 
And here, she doesn't need to prove that so much. He assumes that she's a secretary, and she doesn't correct him.
She just says, I work for a real jerk.
So many characters in Mad Men only speak their truths to strangers.
 
 
Steve: Yeah, and in the commentary, Matt Weiner talks about how in this scene, this dynamic, she's the man. She's really the one who's more in control.
 
But at the same time, she's trying to portray herself in that more stereotypical way so that he can perceive that she's interested and she can let him have that sense of being the man and being in control.
But clearly she's the one behind the steering wheel and driving this forward, and she's the one sending the signals and messages to him.
 
Like when she grabs his hamburger and takes a big old bite out of it. He likes that assertion from her part is exciting to him.
And this is not something we would have expected from Peggy to this point.
 
Jenna: They end up going back to his place. They're kissing, and she says, do you have, you know, a Trojan?
He doesn't.
She kisses him more.
And then she stops. They're both panting. She says, I can't.
 
Peggy cannot make this mistake again. But we see her really wanting this. And unlike Don, she does not want to keep ending up somewhere she's been before.
 
She might be like Don in that she is looking to fill holes in herself,
but she isn't going to rip up her life by repeating her mistakes.
 
So this is such an interesting scene as they're there together, and you could see how much she wants to go through with this.
 
Steve: Well, and the further irony here is he's got no game, he's got no alternative. She's the one who says, you know, there are other things that they can do. So again, she is in control here with this, you know, rather green guy, who’s finishing up his school.
 
 
Jenna: At the Draper household, Betty and Don wake up to a noise, and they discover Gene in their kitchen.
He's pouring alcohol down the drain.
 
So Betty wanted this so much, like, I want my dad, and she just opts out immediately. She looks at Gene pouring all the stuff down. She goes back to bed. She just leaves Don to handle it.
 
He thinks that it's Prohibition and they need to get rid of the alcohol, and clearly he's not right.
 
Steve: Well, she's out, but. But I think I see a lot of pain on January Jones's face as she turns away.
And it's just coming face to face with the deterioration of her father,
not to mention just the inconvenience.
 
I mean, it's probably hard enough for Betty to sleep being, you know, very pregnant, and then now layering in on top Gene's Prohibition flashbacks or whatever.
 
I love the look on Don Draper's face as he stands there watching Gene, and you just sort of see resignation. This is his plan, his decision,
and now he's starting to reap the harvest of it, and it's not a great harvest.
 
Jenna: So Peggy wakes up in the middle of the night, and she's going to leave the guy's apartment. He wakes up, and he seems to want to see her again. She doesn't leave her number or her contact information.
 
She just says on the way out, this was fun.
 
So we don't know if she slept with anybody before Pete, and we don't know what her dating life was like. But it's reasonable, I think, to infer that she didn't have a lot of relationships in the past, because when we meet her in the pilot, she doesn't have a lot of game.
 
And probably somebody who's dated a lot probably wouldn't fall for Pete unless, like, Trudy, you wanted to marry him and build an empire together or something.
 
It feels like she was just trying on a piece of Joan's personality in the bar.
And here she's more like Don. She got what she needed that evening. Now she's done. There's no need to keep up an act.
 
So she doesn't exactly know how to do relationships. And there's also not a clear roadmap for somebody like her to follow. She doesn't want to date this guy, but she gets lonely and she wants attention, and we don't really see very much of it, especially for characters in this time period.
 
Steve: Yeah. And again, I think it's a role reversal where she's. She's the dude, sort of. Thanks for the evening. I'm out of here. He. He lamely offers, I'm in that bar a lot, or, you know, do you want to get breakfast?
 
And she's the one who sort of shuts that down and makes no effort to make this something more enduring. So she's been in control the whole time, and she's in control as she walks out the exit.
 
Jenna: And I don't believe her relationship with Don is romantic on her side. I don't see that. But I do think the affirmation she gets from doing well in his eyes feeds something in her that's similar to the attention you might enjoy if you dated or flirted a lot.
 
And when he puts her down at work, she needs some validation. So she goes out and she tries this.
 
Steve: I think this was a low stakes experiment that Peggy ran. And regardless of how it turned out, she's young, she's got a bit more experience under her belt and perspective.
You know, I'm happy the character is working on something and took a chance and gained some data points here.
 
 
Jenna: In our next scene, a teacher is welcoming parents to field day. There's a maypole and the children are dancing around with ribbons.
Suzanne Farrell, the teacher, is played by Abigail Spencer, recognizable from Rectify, Suits, Timeless, and, if you're a Gilmore Girls fan, when Rory and Logan go to his sister's wedding, she's one of the mean bridesmaids.
 
As the kids are doing this maypole dance. It's like that pure thing that Don was mentioning when he saw Ann Margret. We get the teacher in slow motion, barefoot, and he strokes the grass just to feel closer to her touching the grass too. It's a little bit creepy.
 
Steve: I don't see it as creepy. Inappropriate, maybe.
You know, spring is in the air.
Renewal.
It's been a while since Don Draper's cheated, so I guess everything's starting to align.
 
Jenna: It's been one episode.
 
[Laughing]
 
Steve: Feels like longer.
 
 
Jenna: After the performance,
Sally runs up to her dad and says, Daddy, did you see me dance?
He says, I did. You were great.
And somebody takes their picture. And now their family photo shows their new family unit. With Gene, they’re five.
 
Steve: And I love the portrait, because they're all smiling nicely like, it's a great family shot, but we know the truth behind it and how ragged it is and how problematic it's going to be.
 
So to me, that was just perfect in this modern sense where we often have the social media portrayal and then the gritty reality.
And this feels to be like the 1963 version of that.
 
 
Jenna: Back at the office, Peggy's typing with her door open, and Don goes in, passes her on the way, and it seems like Don recognizes he was inconsiderate here as he pauses.
 
And Peggy doesn't seem like she needs his approval anymore. She's not seeking that from him now. For her, it's just work.
 
Steve: Yeah. I wonder if Don does feel a little guilt that he was too hard on her. And as he's thought about it, he realizes that philosophically,
he's exactly where she was. And yet he didn't offer any of that as a tidbit and then try and bridge over to the practical or the business side of it.
So I did get the sense it's a guilty look that Draper gives Peggy.
 
Jenna: But I love the closing.
So she comes out of her office, she's all business.
Do you want to talk about Pampers?
What do you got?
 
She comes in, she sits down, he lights a cigarette, and they get to work.
 
 
This episode is full of some hard stuff, so I feel like it's a lot to take, but, you know, it's setting up some really great conflicts for this season.
We've got Lane in London, Gene and Betty, Roger and Margaret, Peggy's home and work life balance, and of course, the changes in New York and American society in general. It's a great season.
 
Steve: Yeah, it feels like a very yucky episode to me. Just from. From in terms of not a lot to feel good about in this episode, just a lot of tension, friction, unresolved situations.
I think it is great, you know, from a plot standpoint, setting us up for further adventures, but it is an emotionally taxing episode to me.
 
 
Jenna: Today we'd like to give a listener shout out to Joyce from Nova Scotia. Thank you so much for following us and listening to our Mad Men podcast.
 
 
Steve: That's it for this episode of all things Mad Men, from Chip and Dip to Zou Bisou. Visit our website, Mad Men C to Z dot com to vote for your favorite Sterling lines and to share your opinions on our Double Dip questions for each episode.
 
Jenna: You can find us on Instagram and YouTube @MadMen C to Z. And please listen, like, and subscribe. That's what the podcast's for!
 
Steve: Thanks for listening, everybody.